Click for DECEMBER 2005 BlueBook Entries

NOVEMBER 2005 BlueBook Entries

All Times are Eastern (New York City) Time Zone.

Chat often convenes around 9:00 p.m. NYC time/8:00 p.m. Chicago Time
While there is no set topic, discussion should be vaguely Steely Dan tangential.

Steely Dan Setlists
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    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 21:36:02 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, book of the month.........

    ........By the way, has anyone read the new Beatles bio yet? I have to get my hands on that one soon.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 21:34:05 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, Siberia

    I have to be one of the minority speakers here and confess that I always loved Yes. Someting about seeing them live is mesmerizing and tranquil. When was a kid and first became interested in classiclly oriented and prog rock they were a favorite of mine along with ELP, Tull and Crimson. The quality of their sound is timeless, they are far more deserving to be in the hall on the basis of their intelligent music than say, lightweights like Blondie who reached decadent popularity in the hedonistic late 70's disco culture, or the Sex Pistols, who had a gimmick of being rude, loud, and abrasive. THEY were truly the ugliest band in rock.

    Anyway, McCartney was suberb, outstanding, and gave a performance I have to rate as one of the best I've ever seen by any artist. He has so much energy and commitment to putting on a great show for the fans you have to find that admirable. His voice during the Wings songs was very strong, hardly any different from his 70's sound. I have to say "Live and Let Die" was fantastic, hard rocking, and accompanied by fireworks and live flames emulating the danger of a James bond theme, and Helter Skelter, just as powerful if not more so than on the White Album. His excellent band was a huge part of the performance, they all seemed to be on the same wavelength and did the old hits and the new album tunes great justice. I hope he comes around again, when he's 64.


    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 19:38:09 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    what will be the answer to the asnwer man?

    heh heh. Oh I forget to tell ya-- the BLUE: A PRO-DRUG site.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 19:28:04 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    It's interesting to compare like the San Francisco type of psychedelia to the Beatles sort though. Whatever you think of the Grateful Dead, they were quite a bit more "authentic", as they used to say, in regards to the psychedelic imagery and sound. Early Dead such as St. Stephen or China Cat--man, that is the music of a new paradigm, nearly. The best of the Airplane too--and Hendrix of course. OK it's a bit rough in spots but no pop- top 40 BS: visionary and edgy. Later it sort of mellows out and gets a bit "folky" really--though there is a jazzy edge to some Dead playing, especially live, at the end of tours, when Jerry had been playin' for a few months--or maybe it was decent chiba or other catalysts. The Dead, to me, were far more creative and enigmatic than the Beatless ever were (Hunters' lyrics as well rather cool); though not always up to the Dan's studio guns' chops (Jerry could play some be bop type of stuff however--listen to Blues for Allah). Dig?

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 19:13:20 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    McCartney has a melodic gift, I guess. Eleanor Rigby and some of those madrigal types of things are interesting to some extent. He has a good heart perhaps, or at least has managed to convince the masses over the last 40 years that that's the case. Not really to my taste; the George Martin production works sometimes, but often it seems bombastic and pretensious. Some of the psychedelic stuff was almost cool (the Yellow Submarine movie seemed kind of horrifying however). It's too superficially uplifting, or superficially lyrical or superficially melancholy. But them most pop music is. At least he's a shrewd businessman. Whatever. There's worse things I guess--like 95% of pop-rap-rock music from the last 10 years.

    I think Fagen and Becker are a bit more sophisticated and musically talented than the moptops. Maybe not as shrewd businesswise.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 18:44:55 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    I keep wondering if the Beatles will ever get back together, but apparently it aint gonna happen.
    For some reason...

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 18:10:55 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Seeing McCartney is a bit like going to a museum, it's true, he hasn't really been relevant as a songwriter in a while but I'll be doggone if he and that band of his don't crank out the sterling memories. I doubt the Beatles would've sounded better, it's essentially a Tibute Band, not unlike like the touring version of Steely Dan I daresay. This man, and I bet you'd agree if you saw him live, is still a giant among performers and can be named in the same breath as the great 20th century artists the likes of Picasso, Rudolf Nuriev, Cole Porter, Pavarotti, Tennessee Williams, Rachmaninov, Dali, Frank and Elvis, lots and lots of others but Paul is right up there with them. He is one of the greats, period.

    I think as I look back on it, The Yes Album was their best effort. The songs were a managable length, poppy, rocky, acid jazzy, funky even. Jon Anderson's voice is indeed that of a disembodied spirit, maybe he does communicate with aliens in that sweat lodge.

    Anyway, contrary to some theories I hear espoused around here and elsewhere, seems to me there are a few definite, bedrock objective standards by which to judge and rate all artists, the cheif criteria being broad and long-term popularity in tandem with critical acclaim. A few lucky artists enjoy either one or the other, most don't get either, and a precious few, like Sir Paul, enjoy both.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 16:36:57 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Danoids for Yes? ugh. The singer sounded like some transexual elf (as did Robert Plant all too often). The music, however complex, was far too chimy and bombastic: sort of Holsts' "the Planets" meet, hell, I don't know, well those other sapmeisters, the Beatles (sowwy Raj--Macca doesn't do it for me except maybe as cultural anthropology). So Yes vs. the Pistols I say neither. OK some of Yes' instrumental sections are impressive (if too airy-fairy), but I think the vocals sort of , well, ruin it. (Chicago is worse.)

    At least a group like King Crimson--even ELP--put enough dissonance and weirdness into the mix. Keith Emerson can play as well as any rock keyboardist ever played, and really better than most jazzers--I think his arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition is pretty f-n dread and underrated.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 14:35:38 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    No. 17???? Man, the memory is fading.

    Keep monitoring your mailbox, ss.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 14:04:10 ET
    Posted by: SS, HK

    Raj...yes to all you said about Macca 'cept Sally G was not obscure. It was #17 in the UK and #39 in the U.S. But obscure yes, by his standards.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 13:00:32 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Paul has done Venus and Mars a lot in past years, Junior's Farm I recall from 93, but the one I've wanted to hear for years is the flip side to Junior's Farm, an obscure afterthought called, "Sally G." PM is another guy who's great with the audience, he's comfortable in his own skin, you can't help but like the man, he is after all the undisputed elder statesman of Rock, told a story of how he wrote the rudiments of I'll Follow the Sun as a teenager looking out his folks' living room window, stuff like that. He's a showman in the tradition of the English music hall, precursor to our very own beloved Vaudeville. People had a different sense of fun back then, the world was a simpler place I suppose, seems all our fanciful playfulness has departed our society as we know it. 'Cept for here a-course. His keyboardist and musical director, Wix Wickens, filled in all the strings and horns masterfully -- and, wait for it, whipped out an accordian on Eleanor Rigby. This accordian thing is catching fire...

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 12:51:16 ET
    Posted by: ygk, .


    (obviously, I can't spel)

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 12:50:32 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Alkali: obviously, you don't know Pollack.

    Sex Pistols are to music what Keith Haring is to art....

    c'mon, kid, get it right.....


    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 12:16:08 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Regarding the hall of fame if you induct some untalented mindless dirt bags like the sex pistols then you may as well induct other non musicians.
    The sex pistols are to music what Picasso was to art, better yet what Pollock was to art.

    Did somebody actually say that Chicago deserved to be inducted before Yes?
    Are you on glue?
    I don’t hate Chicago but, please you’re gonna compare “And you and I” to “Saturday in the park”?
    Chicago was ok maybe if you’re into that Blood, Sweat and Tears non challenging safe kind of music. You gotta let that stuff go once you get your first pubic hair though.
    From 72 to the release of “Tormato” Yes had been as consistently good and reliable in their musicianship as anybody including the Dan.
    And they were never commercial.
    (Bruford incidentally is still one of my favorite drummers “gradually going tornado” and “master strokes” are both excellent)

    Raj: McCartney didn’t do his two best songs “Venus and Mars” and “Junior’s farm”!!!

    “…in my green metal suit I’m preparing to shoot up the city……….”


    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 12:12:37 ET
    Posted by: fancied Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: am well bcc: 633f03c5b023811ccb8f8684d7bb2868 . ,

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 11:54:00 ET
    Posted by: SS, In and around the lake

    I think Yes worked altogether better in the 70s..and did enough to get a Hall of Fame nod based on that. Some great harmonies, rythms and playing generally (which they produced very nicely live)...but the lyrics were...baffling certainly, and sometimes just silly.

    For live tracks, still like their Siberian Khatru opener on Yessongs.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 11:38:30 ET
    Posted by: ygk, nyc

    .......why do I feel like a David Spade soundalike here, but.........."regarding Yes? The Answer is always 'no' ".....

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 11:34:15 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    I was a big Yes fan in highschool - not so much anymore. I'd have to say I think they certainly deserve to be in the hall of fame. I saw them twice. First time was on the 90125? (or whatever that number sequence was) and then saw them again on the "Union" tour. The Union tour was a collosal bore! Had second row seats and left after about 30 to 40 minutes into the show. That was the tour where they were ALL playing together - Rabin and Howe, Bruford and Alan White, Wakeman and Tony Kaye - maybe it was just an off night for them or something, but they looked like they were getting ready to go to the dentist.

    For whatever reason, I've always preferred the sound Trevor Rabin brought to the band. He gave them such a huge, bright sound.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 11:26:25 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Ian Anderson made a crack about Jon Anderson the other week at Kodak about him only coming out of his sweat lodge tent long enough to do his shows then beat it back in there. He is a strange one but The Yes Album, Fragile and Close to the Edge are still fun to listen to, they brought the bar way up as far as musicianship in rock. The Punk movement was in some part a reaction to trained musicians of Yes' caliber.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 11:07:01 ET
    Posted by: Clas, Simpli City


    Yes? Oh, I remember when the days were young, and we guys sat digging Roundabout, Close to the Edge and other songs... Yes was great.

    Jon Anderson did a concert here in Stockholm some months ago, the critics wasn't happy. He did some kind of a real/unreal concert with computers and stuff. As I feel now, or... the way I feel about... I can't say... I don't miss not attending that concert.


    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 05:14:17 ET
    Posted by: Still Sparkin', Close to the Hedge

    YES....repetitious and annoying ?

    Annoying is your call...but repititious ? Don't think so.

    Absurd that Yes isn't in the Hall, but the critics found them pretentious and those early 70s flowing robes didn't help.

    Date: Wed, November 30, 2005, 04:06:26 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    YES absolutely belongs in there, they only got cloying around Topographical Oceans.

    Little woman and I took in McCartney at the Staples Center tonight, what a rockin old fart he is, three hours, no break, balls out band, here's the setlist:

    Magical Mystery Tour
    Flaming Pie
    I'll Get You (B side of She Loves You)
    Drive My Car
    Till There Was You (from the Music Man)
    Let Me Roll It
    Got to get You into My Life
    Fine Line (better with the band than on the new record)
    Maybe I'm Amazed
    Long & Winding Road
    In Spite of all the Danger (1958, the Quarrymen)
    I Will
    Jenny Wren (very nice)
    For No One (omigod)
    Fixing a Hole (on the Yamaha grand)
    English Tea (one of his English music hall turns)
    I'll Follow the Sun ( 5 different endings cause it's so short)
    Follow Me (new)
    Blackbird (he said it was a take on Bach's Bouree)
    Eleanor Rigby
    Too Many People (wow)
    She Came in Thru the Bathroom Window
    Good Day Sunshine
    Band on the Run (Gretchen's fave)
    Penny Lane
    I've Got a Feeling (rockin hard now)
    Back in the USSR
    Hey Jude
    Live and Let Die (massive, conspicuous and impressive pyrotechnics)
    Yesterday (with the original righty Epiphone from the Sullivan show)
    Get Back
    Helter Skelter
    Please Please Me (my fave, great insistent bass line)
    Let It Be
    Sgt. Pepper (reprise)/The End

    No breaks, he didn't even take a sip of water. Whippet thin and bags of energy, this 63 year old man put a lot of folks to shame tonight.

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 22:57:38 ET
    Posted by: FP, SC

    I never cared for "Yes". I even remember Fagen saying he didn't like them in some article I read years ago. I always found their sound repetitious and very annoying. Chicago deserves the HOF much more than Yes!

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 21:28:11 ET
    Posted by: Q, TPA

    How Yes can not be in the RR Hall of Fame is beyond me...but then there are so many other truly gifted artists/bands that have been ignored to date why would I be surprised.

    Apparently, it is a miracle that Steely Dan was inducted!

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 17:48:29 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be+Present Prince Of Wales, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    the smart folks at Dandom probably already know this, but it turns out the lyrics to Guacho are based on the Argentinian Gaucho cowboys.

    'who is the Guacho Amigo? Why is he standing in your spangled leather poncho, and you elavator shoes?
    Bodacious Cowboys, such as your freind, will never be welcome here'

    Rootin tootin'.

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 10:08:45 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu, thehorrorthehorror

    h.w.t.: Speaking of that... in the must disgusting Bioscience news of the day, people in the US are becoming so obese, that a NEW, Longer needle had to be invented to inject medicine through the fat and into the bottocks muscle!!!

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 07:18:50 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    For any of you in the LA area - the Carlos Vega Memorial concert is this Saturday night at the Musicians Institute. Greg Bissonette and Chad Wackerman will be the featured drummers as well as a host of other increbible players. Here's the way the email David Garfield sends out reads:
    Musicians Institute
    1665 McCadden Place, Hollywood

    Schedule of Events
    3:00 p.m. - Drum Clinic (sponsored
    by DW Drums with Chad Wackerman)

    4:30 p.m. - Final Competition
    Carlos Vega Memorial Drum Scholarship

    8:00 p.m. - Concert - One show only!

    Artist Line-up: Gregg Bissonette, Chad Wackerman, Russ Miller & Chase Porcaro Duddy (drums); Lenny Castro, Ritchie “Gajate" Garcia, & Luis Conte (percussion); John Peña & Mike Porcaro (bass), David Garfield (keys); Brandon Fields (sax); Michael Tompson & Kurt Dohy (guitar); Walt Fowler (trumpet); Rosemary Butler, Moon Calhoun, Terry Wood, & Laura Creamer (vocals).

    Rajah - I'll bet you would love this! For any of you not familiar with Carlos Vega, he was James Taylor's drummer for a long time. He was as groove infectious as any drummer out there and would've been a superb fit with Steely Dan! Very similar to Porcaro in his ability to give tunes a great feel. Anyways - there ya go.

    Date: Tues, November 29, 2005, 00:20:37 ET
    Posted by: h w t,


    Year of da Phreak!

    Don Van Vliet (the one and only Captain Beefheart--or Doc to his hobo pals)

    The Magic Band too mebbe

    Tom Waits

    King Crimson (play Fractured real loud with the band Bob)

    Can (way dread rock- free-jazz- electronic thanatoid Orwellian dystopic ambient tones.....Stockhausen meets Miles Davis via Velvet Underground)

    Iggy Pop n the Stooges (gotta luv a nice uplifting number like Search and Destroy..........."Ah'm a street-walking cheetah with a hand full of napalm"---music to accompany carpet bombing, or maybe old fashioned ID theft)

    someboday...stop mah......................

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 23:16:04 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    blondie musically speaking is about equal to the sex pistols in terms of nausea...but maybe that Ho chanteuse will show her ass or something'.........she has before....not bad 2500 phucks ago

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 23:12:55 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Miles? Pistols? Sabbath? Skynyrd? sort of like a group mug shot....gotta go with the traditional gospel fave:

    Black yeah...ay ay ay

    (Ok like a decent Danoid, I really prefer Miles to any of this bubblegum noize but Kind of Blue get's a bit dull after 500 spins--)

    I'd ruther listen to dem Skynyrd boys pick than Johnny Rotten (tho the abortion rant was sort of cool...)....Miles with Skynyrd.....there's a band......

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 22:32:20 ET
    Posted by:, said Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: better, and therefore take you and par consequence bcc: 4760872a59e9738a92959afc3f35877d .

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 22:32:09 ET
    Posted by: thunder Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: these, his actions were invariably the result of his bcc: 739de6b83d74cd23d31d81e75ba839d4 . ,

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 22:32:03 ET
    Posted by:,

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 22:31:42 ET
    Posted by:,

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 22:31:17 ET
    Posted by:,

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 21:27:45 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu, makin' Hall out of no talent at all...

    At least Miles was honored - I wonder how many of the judges could name an album besides Kind of Blue

    Blondie? first album was OK...that's about it. Yes, decent drummer.

    Are Dire Straits IN??? Cars IN???? Squeeze (Argybargy and East Side Story or even Hourglass >>>>> Blondie) Peter Gabriel's indeed eligible - his first solo album was 1976 or 1977 Blondie in but not the Cars or Dire Straits or Gabriel? It takes 10 years of eligility to get Traffic in in 2005 and Blondie's in the second year??? Give me a break!!! What kind of bad ganja are these guys smokin'??

    More eligible peer Artists >>>>>>>>>> Blondie: Cars, Dire Straits, Squeeze, Joe Jackson, Marshall Crenshaw, Rockpile (Nick Lowe, Dave Edmunds, Billy Bremmer etc.), Pat Benatar, Pete Thownshed solo (white City, Empty Glass, Best Cowboys >>>>> Blondie), John Fogarty, or even Van Halen, Yes, and the Buggles...

    2001 (1976 or earlier first release - 15 years?)

    Solomon Burke
    The Flamingos
    Michael Jackson
    Paul Simon
    Steely Dan
    Ritchie Valens

    2002 (1977 or earlier first release)

    Isaac Hayes
    Brenda Lee
    Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
    Gene Pitney
    Talking Headds

    2003 (1978 or earlier first release)

    The Clash
    Elvis Costello & the Attractions
    The Police
    Righteous Brothers

    2004 (1979 or earlier first release)

    Jackson Browne
    The Dells
    George Harrison
    Bob Seger
    ZZ Top

    2005 (1980 or earlier first release)

    Buddy Guy
    The O'Jays
    The Pretenders
    Percy Sledge

    2006 (1981 or earlier first release)

    Miles Davis
    Blondie (aaaccckkk!!)
    Black Sabbath
    Sex Pistols (one overhyped album makes a career?)
    Lynyrd Skynyrd


    Dr. Fagen???? (not holding my breath)


    Los Lobos

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 21:20:47 ET
    Posted by: ph,

    In doing my own "Googlism" by simple searching Google for "Steely Dan Is", I found this little review from the July 76 Rolling Stone. Entertaining, to say the least:

    Royal Scam
    Steely Dan
    ABC 931
    Released: May 1976
    Chart Peak: #15
    Weeks Charted: 29
    Certified Gold: 9/15/76

    With each successive album, Steely Dan's popular success and appeal become more obscured by sundry admirers' claims of abstruseness and complexity. To some it seems inevitable that the Dan will eventually produce the Finnegan's Wake of rock. And that's silly: Steely Dan is trying just as hard as any random country/disco/metal band to capture our attention, i.e., sell records. For all their jazzy influences, they are a florid rock band, immersed in popular concerns and styles. True, songwriters Walter Becker and Donald Fagen bow to no one in the matter of composing immaculate, catchy cul-de-sacs, but it is that same immaculateness, the way with words, as impenetrable as they may appear, fit with metrical seamlessness into the melodies that makes their impenetrability of little importance to any casual listener caught up in the sound of the entire song.

    That said, one must immediately note that their latest, The Royal Scam, is the Dan's most atypical record, possessing neither obvious AM material nor seductive lyrical mysteriousness. It also contains some of their most accomplished and enjoyable music.

    The core of the Steely Dan sound is the interplay of sharp, even grating, lead guitar (most often that of Denny Dias) and the cushion of Fagen's various keyboards, always smooth, gliding, pulling the rest of the composition along. It has always been the hard nasal edge of both the lead guitar and Fagen's vocals that rescued the band from slickness, and on The Royal Scam this contrast is more obvious and effective than on any previous record.

    In fact, such is the pervasiveness of both musical and narrative tensions that the overall feeling of Scam is one of just that: tension. There is little of the self-confident gentleness that dotted Pretzel Logic, less still of the omniscience that suffused Katy Lied. The Royal Scam is a transitional album for Steely Dan; melody dominates lyric in the sense that the former pushes into new rhythmic areas for the group (more "pure" jazz, semireggae and substantially more orchestration than before) while the verbal content is clearer, even mundane, by previous Dan standards.

    While Scam is certainly not a concept album, every song -- with the possible exception of "The Fez" -- concerns a narrator's escape from a crime or sin recently committed. Becker and Fagen have really written the ultimate "outlaw" album here, something that eludes myriad Southern bands because their concept of the outlaw is so limited. Rather than just, say, robbing banks ("Don't Take Me Alive," in which the robber is a "bookkeeper's son"), Becker and Fagen's various protagonists are also solipsistic jewel thieves ("Green Earrings"), spendthrift divorcées ("Haitian Divorce") and murderously jealous lovers ("Everything You Did").

    But the Dan's outlaws are also moral ones, guilt-ridden over comparatively minor sins. (Last time out, remember, Katy's chief offense was that she lied, after all.) "Kid Charlemagne" is a selfish egoist, and suffers for it; "The Fez," a sort of Dan-esque answer to Randy Newman's "You Can Leave Your Hat On," concerns a rather pathetic, if kinky, megalomaniac. At their best, these songs yield up concise surrealist introspection; at their worst, they suggest a paranoic death with that is very amusing, if a bit unnerving. The lyrics are also pretty histrionic, and perhaps should not be scrutinezed to solemnly.

    In any event, I doubt that Steely Dan will ever become merely precious or insular; through five albums they have consistently circumvented their complexity with passionate snazziness and fluky, cynical wit. If The Royal Scam lacks ready-made Top 40 fodder, it also widens Steely Dan's already considerable parameters. Their next album, if one can speculate about this lovably perverse bunch, should be a pop killer. In the meantime The Royal Scam is well worth living with, pondering and, what the hell, even dancing to.

    - Kenneth Tucker, Rolling Stone, 7/1/76.


    Well, at least the last paragraph is accurate. But the writer probably should have taken more than 5 minutes of lyrical analysis before making some of the blatent assumptions he did.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 19:50:17 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., NJ

    Re: Christoper Cross & Alan Parsons...

    From this page about the APP:

    "In 1996, >>>>ON AIR<<<<, an album about the history, mythology and symbolism of flight, was released. Guitarist Ian Bairnson led the effort to return to a concept album, the centerpiece of which was his ballad Brother Up In Heaven, about a cousin of Bairnson's who was killed by friendly fire during multi-national patrols over Iraq's no-fly zones in the years following the Gulf War. The album spread its wings to cover everything from the myth of Daedalus and Icarus to the space age, with one song sung by >>>>CHRISTOPHER CROSS<<<< and another, a lengthy instrumental called Apollo, weaving John F. Kennedy's moonshot directive into a jamming techno piece. Ambitiously packed in with a CD-ROM reflecting the album's theme and featuring educational material and some simple games, On Air was released by Parsons' own River North label. The perils of releasing an album on an indie label caught up with On Air, leaving it in cutout bins - and out in the cold when it came to radio airplay."

    See also the album review of ON AIR on the same site:

    I'm sure there are many other references, but that's what I was able to Google up to confirm a connection between the two. The album appears to have been >>>an<<< Alan Parsons project without actually being from >>>The<<< Alan Parsons Project.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 17:48:06 ET
    Posted by: hoops, P.S.

    Didn't Chris Cross do a stint in the Alan Parsons Project sometime in the past 10 years?


    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 17:46:52 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    I think a decent argument could be made for Blondie because of what they contributed to the late 70s and early 80s NYC scene. Keep in mind of course that 'Rolling Stone' and Jahn Wenner play a behind the scenes role in this HoF stuff. Considering that RS moved to NYC from SF around the same time Blondie hit NYC it would make sense. But then if one considers how it took multiple nominations to get Joni Mitchell and David Bowie in, not to mention STEELY DAN(!!!), then you gotta wonder how Blondie got in right away. Politics, politics, and more politics. As for the 80s, I definitely think Eurythmics belongs in there (BTW: "Sweet Dreams (are made of this)" is a masterpiece of humor and sharp wit) and Peter Gabriel (solo) should be there too. To be honest, most of the 80s people I would vote in there are already in and had their start in the 70s. While I am not fans of all of these, I would vouch for Police, Elvis Costello, U2, Cars, Talking Heads, Pretenders, Devo, Sex Pistols, Prince, Peter Grabriel (solo), and, of course, supergroup, Asia. OK, definitely not Asia. And somehow I think Brian Setzer might get a nomination but I don't think I would vote for him.

    BTW: Donald is elligible as a solo artist in 2007 (or would "True Companion" count him in for 2006?).

    Speaking of "True Companion" and the recent "Black Friday" thread, every time the radio features traffic reports and they give updates on the Chicago Skyway, I think of Donald singing "SkyyiiiiWayyyyyy" in TC—yet, I don't think of "Trans Island Skyway." Nevermind ;-)

    Haven't been able to follow all the other threads the past few days, but will keep trying.


    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 17:46:35 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., Oops

    Sorry, Mu. I see you kinda used that Air Supply joke already yourself in you're comment field. I was rushed and didn't notice. Oh well. Guess I was blind that day (today).

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 17:44:09 ET
    Posted by: Joey,

    " Donald on record and whiskers on kittens
    Steely Dan albums and warm woolen mittens
    Remastered repackagings tied up with strings
    These are a few of my favorite things...

    Plush DVDs and crisp apple streudels
    Sleigh bells on JOS and schnitzel with noodles
    Feldman's riffs flying, the moon on his wings
    These are a few of my favorite things

    Pixie & Gina with blue satin sashes
    Snowbound flakes stick on my nose and eyelashes
    Silver white winters that melt into spring
    These are a few of my favorite things

    In the dark night
    When I can't sleep
    When I'm feeling sad...
    I simply remember my Steely Dan things
    And then I don't feel so bad "

    My Rajah ..............................................

    You make Joey giggle

    Joeykins !

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 17:38:27 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., NJ

    Doc Mu: "What? No Air Supply?"

    Nope, no Air Supply. They were all out of love for them. :-)

    How do you guys come up with these fictional future band names? Nosehair? Hypnotoad? Foghat?

    I mean, come on, no self-respecting band would choose such silly names... :-)

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 16:58:32 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Blondie had a good drummer at least.

    Guess I'm jumping the gun on His Lordship To Be but wouldn't anyone be preferable to the current Prince of Wales?

    Baba Burleigh Rajah

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 16:49:27 ET
    Posted by: Mr. Lapage,


    I beg to differ. I'm going with:

    Nocturnal Emission
    A Dollar and a Quarter
    Morning's First Phlem Ball
    Backstreet Boys

    My take on Blondie? Proves how far one can go on no talent (where have we heard that before?)

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 16:39:29 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    2020 Hall of Fame Inductees:

    Fallopian Breakdance
    Vowel Movement
    The Buttplugs

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 16:34:14 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Since when have I been 'your royal highness' Rajah?
    Oh well, I can make a game-print of this page and see how long it is before I find someone stoopid enough to think it's a genuine title...

    Another point-not all 80's music is bad! Me myself, after Steely dan I think REM is pretty good stuff, even if the lead singers got a head to fry an egg on.
    Mind you, anyone know what REM stands for?
    Rocky Edwardsons music.
    Anyone know what happned to him?
    He was a bad boy, pleaded insanity to try and get of the hook-and spent eight years in electro-shock treatment.
    If he wasn't crazy then, I think he'll be pretty freaked by now.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 15:48:13 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, Hall of BS

    THAT's the list for the R&R HOF? Well, Miles is an outstanding choice, which makes up for the rest of the sorry lot. I know lots of people will argue in favor of Blondie and Sex Pistols, but as I hate! hate! hate! 80's music I can't see the logic.
    Who in God's name will they induct in 10 or 20 years? Today's music, pop and rock, rivals the 80's for insipidness. I need XM radio.


    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 15:23:49 ET
    Posted by: angel,

    Today's Top Five subject is themed "Black Friday" and the ambience is provided by.....Steely Dan. (scroll toward the bottom of the page)

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 14:22:56 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    I am when I read your lame-ass bullshit fer shur.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 14:07:04 ET
    Posted by: echoes from the past, the sign post up ahead

    but he never trusted Hyman Roth. Being Rajah Boneducie yeah sure your not depressed.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 13:54:26 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu, I'mallouttalove

    What? No Air Supply? No Christopher Cross?

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 13:04:13 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., NJ

    Rock Hall of Fame announces inductees

    Black Sabbath
    Miles Davis
    The Sex Pistols
    Lynyrd Skynyrd

    Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss, who founded A&M records in 1962, will receive a lifetime achievement award in the non-performer category.

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 12:22:03 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Alkali - What a great story! I can damn sure spare 10 Euros for the holidays.

    I just got back last week from Vegas for one of my best friends' bachelor party. Three nights of madness that I'm not really at liberty to talk about other than watching Mick Jagger entertain a crowd of about 15,000 of us on Friday night. 62 years old and he is all over the damn place! I've never been a huge Stones fan, but my buddy bought the tickets for the six of us that went on the trip and it was a helluva good show! Last time I went to Vegas was back in 03 to see our boys at Mandalay Bay. I love that town!

    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 11:29:20 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Yea depression sucks; I know that when I get to feeling low talking to someone sometimes helps someone who’ll just listen…somebody to trust.
    But then, there are those times that the last thing you want is someone around; it’s at these times when all you wanna do is put on something really sad and cry your eyes out.
    It’s the melancholy side of a primal scream.

    And now for something completely different

    I hope everyone had a good Feastgiving day.
    I gotta tell you guys a great Dan related story that was told to me on the weekend by my buddy Jeff, he’s the one who has spent the past month in Amsterdam.
    His company installs high end music systems, he and his workers had just finished the installation of a Klipsch in a “coffee shop” called ‘Bush Doctor’ who’s owner by the way is a fellow Italian.
    Anyway, to try the system out Jeff put on “Everything must go” right to track 4…you guessed it “Godwhacker”
    He said the sound was absolutely incredible, that it made the hairs stand up on the back of his neck.
    He continued to tell me that the people in the shop that weren’t tapping their feet were goose necking, every single person!
    Here comes the best part; four different people came up to ask the bud tender what the music was and one guy even asked if he could buy the CD there!

    Price of a Klipsch-synergy stereo system- 20K Euros.
    Price of a Steely Dan CD- 15 Euros
    Price of 1 Gram of Purple Haze-10 Euros
    Price of a bar filled Dutch stoners groovin’ to Godwhacker-Priceless


    Date: Mon, November 28, 2005, 07:23:20 ET
    Posted by: SS, Deep into.....

    A plain enough looking piece in Cinncinati Citybeat from June 2000, but some very different quotes, including one on dropping the name Steely Dan. Hadn't seen that before and there are others that make this a good read....

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 23:35:52 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Au contraire, Your Royal Highness, we are not all depressed round here. But we do remain ever aware that we are freaks "willing away troubles" as you say while listening to Steely Dan.

    That's one of their best applications, actually.

    Like Frank, fer instance. When I'm feeling down, I put on, "In the Wee Small Hours of the Morning," and hearing Frank bummed to the max over some broad somehow lifts me back up.

    Go figure.

    Now, Schprokketts, let's dance!

    Bab Triptophanning Rajah

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 22:09:33 ET
    Posted by: chloe, contemplating the question, "where is here?"

    So, I know this guy.. Interesting character, really. He's a minister, of all things, but a very liberal one.. He was lamenting to me over how he misses his ex-, the guilt he's suffering over how he treated her and the things he did (yep!) to cause the break-up, etc. I just couldn't resist passing along to him the lyrics to "Things I Miss The Most...".. along with the CD, as a gift. And get this. He's currently reading a book on boat-building, and he's practicing his meditation skills daily. He and his ex- also used to have a very nice home together in CA before he lost it to her in the break-up! (Reckon they had some really nice copper pans there?)

    Makes ya say, "Hmmmm..."..

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 21:12:26 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen,


    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 17:02:04 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Whoa! Have we all suddenlly become depressant freaks willing away our troubles with Steely Dan music before a glass of something mighty strong?
    Seriously-are we?

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 15:37:52 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, live from nowhere

    For anyone wanting a fascinating read on depression, try Andrew Solomon's "The Noonday Demon." A bit clinical in some parts, but great case studies and insight into a problem everyone seems to feel is their own fault. This is not a schmaltzy self help book - reading this will actually lift your spirits a little.

    Thanks LWO for the ipod info. It's tempting, but I realize we're 28 days to Christmas and I realized I'd better save my pennies to spend on others! I'll wait for January........


    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 12:24:59 ET
    Posted by: ph, it feels so good...

    Those are all some very good anti-depressant songs.
    Here's some more I find instrumentally comforting:
    Midnight Cruiser
    Boston Rag
    Through With Buzz
    Bad Sneakers
    All of AJA
    Bablylon Sisters
    Negative Girl
    West of Hollywood
    Green Book

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 12:20:28 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, on a natural high

    Donald on record and whiskers on kittens
    Steely Dan albums and warm woolen mittens
    Remastered repackagings tied up with strings
    These are a few of my favorite things...

    Plush DVDs and crisp apple streudels
    Sleigh bells on JOS and schnitzel with noodles
    Feldman's riffs flying, the moon on his wings
    These are a few of my favorite things

    Pixie & Gina with blue satin sashes
    Snowbound flakes stick on my nose and eyelashes
    Silver white winters that melt into spring
    These are a few of my favorite things

    In the dark night
    When I can't sleep
    When I'm feeling sad...
    I simply remember my Steely Dan things
    And then I don't feel so bad

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 11:48:19 ET
    Posted by: Wham Bam, 20,000 leagues under the sea

    "If Don and Walt did a holiday cd, what songs would they choose?"

    Oh, probably something like...

    Have Yourself A Merry Little (insert arcane reference to some ancient ceremonial rite that nobody ever heard of, HERE)

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 11:21:58 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Not to mention Fire In The Hold, that one really gets me through my stress if I've got any big decision making. You've probably already guessed I like that number from my caption (Wordlywise...). Even though the lyrics of the song give of an impression of hopelessnees, they do the opposite for me, along with the brilliant sound, of course.

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 11:11:03 ET
    Posted by: Little Wild One, Prozac Nation

    Don't forget "Any Major Dude," which has dragged me out of a few major trenches.

    Ok, Jim, now every time I hear the song, "My Favorite Things," I think of Steely Dan and you.

    BTW, DirectTv subscribers can now select from various XM stations. I haven't sampled many yet, but I was listening to Holly, the traditional holiday music station yesterday. There is also a Bad Santa choice (name escapes me...I think it was Special XM).....which got me to thinking:

    If Don and Walt did a holiday cd, what songs would they choose?

    P.S. Gretchen, check this out: It's your color too!

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 08:52:25 ET
    Posted by: Chrys, Pitts

    Thanks, Stevie Dan, for that link. How about that article-post? Another wisenheimer, good journalistic skills and a smart guy, but who misses the forest for the trees--another oblivious sort who just doesn't "get" Steely Dan.

    SD has a hell of a lot more influences than he lists, and the guy just doesn't appreciate the musical irony of Don & Walt's aesthetic. He thinks the influences weren't worth developing, that they lead nowhere. Well, if that's how he hears it, that's how he hears it. But I think he has a hearing problem.

    The cat also misses that "Glamour Profession" is a parody of disco (and at the same time, and without doubt, the greatest disco tune ever written). And the coda/tag is a great tribute to Wes Montgomery, as well as Grant Green--those great funkily romantic coda/tags Wes did so beautifully. And how could that writer guy be insensate to the astonishingly advanced--astonishingly advanced for pop music anyway-- chromatic harmony in the song?

    The dude should go back to his Green Day and Kanye West, or whatever.

    Date: Sun, November 27, 2005, 00:02:47 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, running away with Lester the Nightfly...

    PH, I, too, have felt the ravages of depression during several periods of my life. "Any World" is a welcome anecdote for me as well, and during the darkest times I listen to Black Cow, Green Earrings, and Gold Teeth I (usually in the car or in the discman* while walking) to make me feel life is not as horrifically draining as I perceive it to be.

    **Yes, a discman. Wanted the Ipod mini but apparently those are history now, and the nanos,ultra slim, ultra invisible, etc. seem too fussy.


    Date: Sat, November 26, 2005, 20:27:25 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    pH, Lordship: 2 rallys:

    One in Nazi Germany (Hitler = the little man)

    then 40 years later

    a KKK/white supremacy rally

    Typically Dan's ear candy shrouds the dark core of the song's true meaning

    Date: Sat, November 26, 2005, 18:32:30 ET
    Posted by: ph, it feels so good

    Additionally, Chain Lighting could have been a good 2 minutes longer. I like the '93 Tour version because it's more than 10 minutes long....

    Date: Sat, November 26, 2005, 17:11:49 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Oh yeah, happy thanksgiving folks.
    I kind of forgot to mention that just now, and being British, I don't suppose I'l be forgiven quikly by anyone celabrating it.

    Date: Sat, November 26, 2005, 17:09:04 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    I agree with you there.
    Yes, if you know what Chain lightnings talking about, it's pretty evil stuff, but for something as crazed as that, it sure is mellowed. I don't know about you, but it really relaxes me, puts me in a very relaxed state of mind, kind of like a 'lightning bubble' as I call it (no, I had actually thought of the phrase lightning bubble BEFORE I heard chain lightning).
    It really does de=stress you, although I always feel MORE awake then I did before listening to it. Pumped up and ready.
    Three days is a mountain somewhere later, I'm a little more woozy, but hey.
    YGI also rocks, it has very much the same feel to it as Chain Lightning, but the lyrics freak you out a little less.
    Any World also rocks. It aounds brilliant, and I have this belief that home is anywhere you're welcome to, not where you happen to live. any World kind of agrees with me here.

    Date: Sat, November 26, 2005, 16:39:38 ET
    Posted by: ph, one of these children who scheme and run wild

    I know the premise of Chain Lightning is essentially rather sinister and evil, but it's such an amazingly soothing and relaxing song. Probably because of the weather, the fact that I haven't got any sleep this week, and that I was recently diagnosed with some serious depression problems, I have been in a really BAD mood all week. Chain Lighting made my day, I don't know why, but for the first time all week, I actually felt relaxed while driving home and listening to it. I think my favorite three Dan songs in a row would have to be YGII, Lighting, and Any World. What a killer sequence...I love Steely Dan.

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 20:09:38 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Yeah we do.

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 17:04:17 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Alkali, thanks for posting that! We Dan fans are all wired to hear things in a unique way that makes our ears perk up! I've been thinking the same thing when they say "black Friday" on the news.

    Happy Black Friday, everyone!


    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 13:02:37 ET
    Posted by: Q, TPA

    I think Rundgren is a brilliant "replacement"(addition?) to the retreaded Cars!

    Wouldn't have bothered to see the tour otherwise, but with Todd in the mix- for sure will see it.

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 10:25:28 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Happy Thanks Giving to all you guys on the other side of the Pacific!

    From the Wild Woman of Borneo

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 06:12:29 ET
    Posted by: Valentin, USA

    Hello friends!
    Congrats all Thanksgiving Day!

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 03:29:43 ET
    Posted by: Vivien, I guess the Wb since we've been relocated

    The one and only track for this project He'r Bluz
    'just like vivian" copy'rt' Ms. judiw tzuke
    or your'e fave "liggers at your funeral"

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 02:37:55 ET
    Posted by: ashley, USA

    Congrats Thanksgiving Day!

    Date: Fri, November 25, 2005, 01:03:02 ET
    Posted by: bluz, Mellrose

    happy thanksgiving kid.
    we pulled it off.

    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 21:21:04 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Happy Black Friday.


    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 17:56:44 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Gretchen - if this Dan gathering should take place in Carmel, I will bring my sticks! Golf, not drums. Desperately need to play Pebble before death gets in the way. Not planning on dying any time soon, but ya never know.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all in the great state of Dandom!!

    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 15:16:53 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    The latest Dandom Digest has been sent, this time covering October 29-November 24, 2005.

    If you are a subscriber, you should see it in your email box within the next 12 hours. If you don't receive it, please email me. Again, the main reason I am in the habit of announcing this here is because some people have been having problems with delivery of the Dandom Digest, usually because of spam filters, firewalls, etc.

    The following are the subjects of this particular edition of the Dandom Digest

    — Warner Reps Have "Big Reaction" to New Fagen Cuts
    — google book search
    — Swearing by Every Word? The Usual Review of SD News Items & Rumors
    — RE: Jewsrock
    — in the background
    — SD mention by SI's Peter King
    — A good, cheap book
    — Shapiro/Bergeson - New York shows with guests!
    — Jeff Skunk Baxter and the Pentagon
    — Second Christmas Album from Mike McD
    — Rundgren tours with Cars
    — Update on Michael Brecker

    If you are not currently a subscriber but would like to receive the free Dandom Digest email newsletter (definitely not to be confused with the glorious Official or Official newsletters/mail lists), please email me or see


    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 14:25:02 ET
    Posted by: Rajah , For You Blue

    And so today,
    My world it smiles,
    Your hand in mine,
    We walk the miles.

    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 13:39:02 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

    Belated wishes to the Canadians.

    Most thankful for? Well all of you folks but most of all STEELY DAN! At the risk of this turinging into a Steely Dan version of "My Favorite Things," but it's true, when things suck, I simply remember my favorite Steely Dan things and people and then I don't feel so bad. { Oy! }

    Read in yesterday's Chicago Sun-Times that DF's pal, Todd Rundgren, is going to be taking Ric Ocasek's place on a Cars' Reunion tour in 2006. With two members missing— the guy who sang "Drive" who died about 5 years ago and Ocasek—I'm not so sure how this is a reunion but I definitely can see Rundgren being the best possible replacement for Ocasek. Maybe it would be a "Cars Revue." The article implies Ocasek is OK with this arrangement but Rundgren is none too thrilled about there ever being a Utopia reunion.

    All the best to you my friends.

    Your vicious and crabby pal,


    Date: Thurs, November 24, 2005, 13:28:40 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, the kitchen

    Happy Thanksgiving to all of Dandom, and many more to come!
    Thankful this season for health, new career, and above all family, friends, and of course the one and only Rajah. Salut!

    How about a Dan gathering in Malibu or Carmel in 06? I know you would be up for it, South.

    And last but certainly not least, many thanks for Hoops for this site and all his dedication to our community. Hope to see everyone soon........Donald and Walter included.


    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 22:51:21 ET
    Posted by: Little Wild One, Making.....turkey(s)

    Although it's been said many times, many ways:

    "Sharing the things we know and love with those of my kind."

    And before anyone gets way too scared, I'm in charge of the placecards for dinner tomorrow and the wine. That I can handle!

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 22:41:51 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Snow?

    Just a quick note to wish all of you a Happy Thanksgiving and to pose this question:

    For what are you most Dan-Thankful for this holiday season?


    And OBTW: It's snowing here...Gawd, I miss Cali...

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 15:29:33 ET
    Posted by: John, Chicago`

    HERE is a remarkable interview with Fagen and Becker and their engineers etc.. IT is hilarious. and very long

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 13:23:13 ET
    Posted by: SteveeDan,

    I received an e-mail from one of the guys in our band about an article about the Gaucho and Aja albums that was written yesterday. I do not agree with much of what this guy is talking about. He obviously doesn't understand as much about Steely Dan as he tries to make the reader believe he does. Here's the link:

    Check it out.

    That was an epic discussion about how to most properly notate the "Two Against Nature" song. I too hear it in 6/4 time because I strongly hear the first 4 beats of the 6 beat phrase as it's own "unit" followed by the remaining 2 beats of the 6 beat phrase also as it's own unit. I do see why Howard would contend that the song is in 3/4 as you could more simply write it that way (making the 6 beats a series of eighth notes with indicated accents), but it just doesn't sound like 3 to me. It sounds like 6 and with that hinting at a complex time signature feel (a feel that sounds like it's being sustained over 2 measures) coupled with the latin-influenced groove, I would say that there would have to be some additional notation or explanation as to why this chart written in a 3/4 time signature doesn't have a typical waltzy feel to it's rhythm.

    In fact, the way that I would approach it would be to make a generic 6/4 measure showing the accenting that breaks the phrase up into 4/4 + 2/4 and saying that it equals a much simpler notation denoted in 3/4 time. That way you could at least write the chart without it scaring the reader who looks at it after the fact.

    Is that a music notation cop-out ? Probably. Would it work ? Absolutely.

    Those of you within driving distance (although, some are flying in for it) of Studio City, California, save the date Thurday December 1st.

    Pretzel Logic performs at La Ve Lee on Ventura Blvd. with new material and some other surprises. Bring the whole Fam Damily !

    Happy Triptophan y'all.


    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 12:39:33 ET
    Posted by: lucklesspedestrian,

    Just to let you know that the Gaucho outtakes are back up again at

    Just heard 'The Bear' for the first time...not too many days you get to hear a 'new' Steely Dan tune these days!!

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 11:44:43 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, Which One's Swish?

    Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again. Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again. Ever. I know it was you, Fredo. You broke my heart, you...broke my heart.

    Baba Luca Brazzi Rajah

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 09:10:15 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Chrysler: Well Said. W&D eschewed the British invasion to mine the mother lode of great American pop tunesmithery while using their lyrics for lierary effect and Dylanesque worldview to hone in on characters of the down and out, rather than the self-confessionary pablum that surrounded them.

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 04:40:45 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, pickin' up the thread

    Re SD and PM--

    Right now I am listening to the single most beauteous album I have ever heard--BEYOND THE MISSOURI SKY, Charlie Haden & Pat Metheny. Sheer eclectic gorgeousness from start to finish. Better than the last half-dozen PMG records combined. As good as SECRET STORY (which was Metheny solo).

    Don't know wassup w/ the PMG--they been plowing the same deja vu pastel worldbeat shit for too long now. Spectactularly intricate stuff, but, in the end, they been doin' it to a boring death for far too long.

    But here's a big reason why I love Metheny and Steely Dan--they both have that glorious 60s AM pop radio buzz--back when AM pop radio was a wonder to behold, the whole Jimmy Webb/Burt Bacharach/Carole King/Brill Building thang, the Brazil 66/77 Sunset Strip/Route 66 vibe, the Wes Montgomery/Grant Green bag, i.e., the PRE-PSYCHEDELIC 60s.

    That's what separates 'em from most everyone else--while everybody and his brother was going after the au go go acid rock hippie post-Sgt. Pepper carrot-on-a-stick, SD and PM were always mining a far deeper and less ephemeral vein.

    So, hWt, I think I hear what you were saying a few posts ago, no?

    Date: Wed, November 23, 2005, 04:11:18 ET
    Posted by: Due With Buzz, CoolZville

    Nigey Lennon went to the Rickie Lee Jones concert in Tribeca. Here's her With A Gun column about the evening...

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 22:33:27 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Thanks Rhythm Section!! You're absolutely right of was Scrooge in Christmas Carol! Fagen in Oliver Twist. I heard an amusing story of a little boy who was taken to see the movie of the latter...asking his mum "When's he going to do it?" topic and grossly irrelevant, but harmless - which can't be said of recent irrelevant stories that have crept in here.

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 18:06:59 ET
    Posted by: I.E.,

    What if "Steely Andy" covered The Royal Scam?

    Crooner Andy Williams expects to cut his first studio album in 20 years in early 2006 -- and it'll have a more contemporary sound than the ballads he's turned into standards. This time, "I'm doing songs that have been hits before by other people, like 'Have I Told You Lately That I Love You' by Van Morrison, and The Eagles' 'Desperado,'" reveals Andy. "It's going to be a different kind of an album for me."

    Cutting edge tracks, especially that Desperado.

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 17:53:05 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Bway Steve: You may have picked up the vibe through the ether. I feel a mojor chord slut album coming...

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 17:51:08 ET
    Posted by: Paul Carrack, asdf

    ARGH! When is this bloody album coming out Don?!?!? I'm losing it!

    Thanks for the chance to vent, guys ...

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 16:28:47 ET
    Posted by: Joey,

    " We had dinner, sat around with some wine talking and then he told my wife and I “I have a little something for you” he left for his luggage. When he came back he had a small zip lock bag with some good grass called “white widow” he picked up at his favorite haunt in A’Dam a “coffee shop” named De Dampkring.
    He rolled a pretty average sized J and we all toked until it was about half done then he put it out! My wife and I looked at each other and then at him; Jeff just smiled and said just wait a minute. No sooner had he said this when it hit us three like a steam roller.
    That’s almost exactly two tokes each!!
    We just sat there smiling not saying a single thing for close to 20 minutes "

    I love this story .........

    " White Widow " huh ?!?!?!

    Developing .......................................

    The Joeykins !

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 15:19:13 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    BwaySteve: sweet holy Jesus what a night! I must admit I rather like your dream...

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 13:26:36 ET

    ann of borneo, fagan was actually in Oliver Twist, don't think the Christmas Carol had any pick pocket thieves involved.

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 11:55:17 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Rajah: Who doubt related somewhere along the line or Willy nicked the name just for use in his the "Fagen" character in Dicken's "A Christmas Carol"!!

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 11:29:11 ET
    Posted by: Clas,


    Alkali - I'm with you on Kama, I never listen to that album no more. There's a strange, clinical, disinfected feel over the soundscape. Terrible.


    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 10:39:23 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Ann - there's a Sir Walter Blunt in Henry IV, Part 1 by you-know-who. Same clan?

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 10:27:50 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, Gotham

    It’s like the future daddy-o…
    The only real comparison between Fly and Kama in my opinion begins and ends with their “posterity” concept(s).
    The yearning of a young boy and man for the remote hereafter.
    Its promise of an ultra-sleek and shiny adventurous future or what I like to dub
    ‘Eventuality and its prospect’
    They both also have that Hep-Cat early jive Jazz action happening and in this way the CD’s are related, perhaps not so much as brothers but as father and son.
    But this is where the similarities end; both musically and lyrically.

    Fly is much more adventurous and bold, even though the kid never really goes anywhere except for his late night bedroom. However, once he’s there he explores the world far beyond his young years. Pondering everything from the early libidinous itch to politics and thermonuclear annihilation.
    This kid is innocent and precocious at the same time.
    The music blends electrified jazz and that bouncy excitable tempo on “New frontier” to a very main stream straight ahead cookie cutter jazz gem of “Nightfly” to a carib-calypso deal on “Goodbye look” to a croony “Maxine”
    All the while maintaining that thread of zoot suit hep-ness to it.
    I love this record.

    On the other hand Kama comes on strong with “Trans Island” but it soon becomes disappointing and almost monotonous, the tunes don’t really go anywhere even though our protagonist is cruising about a thousand miles an hour. There are some bright spots the intro to “Florida room” and “Snowbound”. I like “Tomorrows girls”.
    The rest of it….not so much.


    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 09:11:09 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Watch out for James Blunt, currently touring in your neck of the woods. Huge talent....and can trace his family back over 1000 years!

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 07:13:21 ET
    Posted by: Cheech, Smallville

    Coffeeshop De Dampkring
    Handboogstraat 29
    1012 xm Amsterdam
    Tel. +31 (0)20-6380705

    Date: Tues, November 22, 2005, 00:28:58 ET
    Posted by: Matt, Chattanooga, TN

    Anon - but is it killer?

    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 23:22:16 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, Times Sq

    I had an auditory dream over the weekend.I heard the New DF CD.
    Almost all the songs sounded like Kulee Baba, even the uptempo ones.
    One tune was cheery. One was in 3/4...or was it 6/8 ?

    I've been listening to Kama too.

    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 17:38:43 ET
    Posted by: Anon, ?

    Mr. Lapage..DF's new one is a 110 x better than Kama

    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 13:14:33 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Alkali: you might want to get the addy for De Dampkring, so Danfans visitng A'Dam can have a smoky home......


    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 11:29:53 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Coltrane, Impressions, Live Newport '63

    Str8-up and on the 'natch--

    fly as fly may bee


    (whats that you say? Beetle Bones and British tones? ack)

    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 10:02:31 ET
    Posted by: C,


    Alkali - of course you can. Pompes old sofa is still standing. Bring some White Widow.


    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 09:56:52 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    My buddy Jeff flew in Friday night from A’dam, my wife and I picked him up at JFK we exchanged pleasantries and got caught up to speed on things.
    Jeff is an old high school (Shiva) and college friend who has spent the last month in Holland.
    He left during the first phase of the cannabis cup (he said that the crowds are just mad around this time of year)
    By the way, he’s a Danfan also and has actually gotten a hold of an early seventies concert bootleg of theirs (I’ve heard it, it’s nothing to get excited about)
    We had dinner, sat around with some wine talking and then he told my wife and I “I have a little something for you” he left for his luggage. When he came back he had a small zip lock bag with some good grass called “white widow” he picked up at his favorite haunt in A’Dam a “coffee shop” named De Dampkring.
    He rolled a pretty average sized J and we all toked until it was about half done then he put it out! My wife and I looked at each other and then at him; Jeff just smiled and said just wait a minute. No sooner had he said this when it hit us three like a steam roller.
    That’s almost exactly two tokes each!!
    We just sat there smiling not saying a single thing for close to 20 minutes
    (if you only knew my wife you’d appreciate what kind of feat this is)
    Finally, I managed to walk over to the CD player and asked if there were any requests I rattled off some titles when I got to Steely Dan Jeff immediately barked “no, no Steely Dan” I looked at him surprised. He continued “one of the owners at De Dampkring is a big Danfan so that’s all I’ve been hearing for the past month”

    How cool is that Danions!

    Jeff is a big time Phish-head so that’s what we listened to, my wife went to bed after about an hour, and she was feeling no pain.
    Jeff spent the night on the couch and we took the subway into Brooklyn to his place in the morning.

    Wow, the stuff he gave me is the best I’ve ever smoked.
    I’m thinking about selling my business, divorcing my wife and moving to A’Dam tomorrow.

    CLAS: can I crash with you until I find a place?


    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 05:34:10 ET
    Posted by: CLÆS,


    Georg Wadenius says that "Springtime" was the hardest one to nail.


    Date: Mon, November 21, 2005, 00:04:09 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., ...with a human heart beating in an ion grid

    With anticipation building for the new Fagen album and with all this recent talk about "Kamakiriad," today I listened to "Nightfly" and "Kama" and then I even pulled out my "DF: Words & Music" CD where Donald discusses Kama...

    Around 5:30 of segment 2 Donald begins commenting on "Springtime":

    "The chronology is sometimes interrupted by explosions from the past. Specifically the song 'Springtime,' concerns an amusement park that he stops at along the way called Springtime. The introduction is the exposition and it tells you that there's this place called Springtime that's the most popular place along the Funway. In this place they scan your brain for the memories of your early romances and then play it back to you in some magnificent virtual theatre."

    "Then, when the actual song begins after the introduction, you actually see some of these scenes recreated. At that point, the music becomes manic rather than nostalgic. Because nostalgia is really a sort of a trap we fall into sometimes that prevents us from moving forwards. I feel by putting the wrong music under the lyric, it basically sabotages the sentimentality."

    Not sure if that's of much interest, but it seems generally relevant to any discussion/debates of "Springtime."

    Oh, and BTW count me among those who love "Springtime." But then I also seem to be in what I perceive to be a minority of fans who prefer "Kama" to "Nightfly" even if just slightly. Probably my sci-fi taste coming through.

    In segment 3 Donald mentions the "Nightfly" to "Kamakiriad" flow:

    "Well I think that in Kamakiriad the narrator's trying to reclaim some of his optimism, perhaps naive optimism, that he had as a child, and as it's spelled out in The Nightfly. I think that the way it ends up, the character at the end is still optimistic, but without the naivete. In other words, he's basically much more in contact with reality, and realizes the harshness of reality, and yet maintains a kind of optimism."

    "I try to keep my own personal politics out of the stuff I do, aside from the spillover that happens when you create something that's part of yourself."

    (I included that last quote only because it was in sequence, of course, and I've sometimes seen folks post wondering about the politics of D&W as presented in their tunes.)

    For those who maybe don't have the "DF:W&M" CD or have never heard it, the full transcribed text can be found at...

    In segment 4 Donald says: "I feel that, more than any other record, I got the finished product to sound the way I imagined it would come out."

    Can't help wondering how DF#3 (the final chapter of the trilogy?) will turn out relative to Donald's internal conception. Bring on 2006!

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 23:50:59 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    Springtime would be infinitely better with some more natural, organic sounding drums and slightly different instrumentation. But then it'd also be better if it was more like that intro which is just absolutely STUNNING. It's not a bad song, it just leaves me with an empty feeling, much like half of the songs on Kamakiriad. I just don't dig that "sound." I prefer the straight up, alive, and natural sound you'd hear from the instruments on EMG for example. A live version of Springtime would be quite good actually, I should think...

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 22:55:21 ET
    Posted by: I.E.,

    Yes! Everyone else loathes Springtime! :-)

    I remember a thread on it. Explained as DF channeling James Brown.

    Of course everyone loves it but heathens.

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 22:51:45 ET
    Posted by: Still Sparkin', Funway East

    Am I really the only one who digs Springtime ?

    Never would have thought that. Listen to the beginning and then ....zap ?

    The beginning is just the setup for a great groove anchored by that funky WB bass line.- a track full of slick horns and DF's quirky vocal (laughing piiiiines).

    It's not like most of you haven't gone the distance with this tune so I won't ramble on but who knows, maybe you'll get Springtime Iater...when I start getting Snowbound.

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 20:11:23 ET
    Posted by: Blitzen Bop Peep, Bender Blanderland

    Mebbe but in time for Mass X, er X-Mass, Jolly Holly Max-mass, Royal Tannenbaum with the Polyethylene, Ethyl? Mertz? uh y aknow...skull on the tip top, yule tree festooned with de riguer...yess CorpseMass!...and now Walt maybe if he plays his rards cight? product produce, mall market, that izz to say, goods deliver, Charles and Burl Ives: The Unknown Snowman

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 18:11:58 ET
    Posted by: Berfida, Nils Landgren & Joe Sample Creole Love Call <- Out now!

    ph: Walter make a second solo album? But of course! The sooner the better I say!

    With age and maturity he'll deliver a 2-CD concept album sounding somewhere inbetween tibetan monks and early Eurythmics with a dash of Willie Nelson circa "Red Headed Stranger".

    Oh! And just to rub me the wrong way it'll be all-instrumental and no vocals.


    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 17:14:49 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    anyhoo those old Dan rock-jazz pieces like haitian divorce or caves of altamira or charlemagne etc. etc. had a complexity that most of the new Dan sort of eschews....lots of 2vn and EMG is pretty much R n B if not old blooz did the D & W return to their roots because "we're only in it for the money" or 'cuz that what they dig....mebbe muzak is kaput.............stravinsky's soldier story...muzak for omni-death.....anyone ever heard of the group "Can"? way dread electronic-enhanced free jazz-rock without pop crap that sounds like music under totalitarian regimes is supposed to sound..... das stimmt!

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 16:33:12 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Chrysler Driver--

    I don't deny that 2vn and EMG required craft and arranging and chops but the music seems a bit soulless...especially in regards to say Royal Scam...

    and PMG does do some fluff--maybe too much--but PM's sort of bi-polar--the sort of world beat new-age stuff with the wordless vocal crud wears thin, but then some of the more chromatic pastelly stuff flies...."Oceania"...the second side of "Secret Story" has some cool complex sort of polymodal playing...'trane-miles like...a PBS special with PMG a year or so has PM playin' some wicked be bop free stuff it's hit and miss ...

    I have Frisell's Ghost Town CD and it's ok in spots... sort of hokey -folkie....I don't listen to much six-string jass.....the guy who plays with Chick Corea---Gambale....he is a monster player...when he's not doin' the more commercial fusion stuff...some of the best 6-string slingin' I have heard was Wadenius on the Citizen Dan live CD-........whatevah....when drivin' I put on Kenny Burrell with Jimmy Smith................

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 09:38:52 ET
    Posted by: I Drove The Chrysler, PA

    HwT--My own view of the Patmeister & Steely Dan is the reverse of your'n. Re the Dan, things took a quantum leap forward in musical depth 'n sophistication--please note I did not say quality-- beginning with AJA, then on and up to (but not including) EMG, which album represents a kind of Kierkegaardian return to earlier musical values. I think the high quality of songwriting remains constant throughout the whole catalogue, but the later MUSIC is more substantial.

    Metheny, on the other hand--the early and mid-period stuff is FAR more vital, original, and substantial than the intricate pastel fluff of the past half-dozen-or-so albums. "Marvelous, professional cocktaily shtick" indeed, I would say. Hats off, Hobo, PERFECT description, not of AJA, but of the later PMG.

    Pat really needs to sit down some weekend, and listen to how great his music used to be.

    "Wizard of Weird?" There are a whole lot of cats out there who're a hell of a lot weirder than Pat--Bill Frisell, for one. And I can guarantee our PQ can come up with a very long list of weird musical artistry, weirder than Frisell.

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 01:14:09 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    ph, Dan: Indeed, "It's like an awful dream" where Fagen battles the demons of writer's block, depression, and apprehension using the album as a vehicle (pun intended) of Donald re-entering The Road and collaborating with Walter again. The Sci-Fi schtick makes a perfect cover for a series of subconscious dream ssequences - Donald puts his best foot forward...and in the end it's onward ho and Steely Dan II. That's why it has a Jules Verne/Sci-Fi B movie alien funk series surreal, off-center feel - very we move past the Springtime vigniette the hyper thrymic corset is loosened and the album becomes more open and a little more organic - more use of space (not the galactic kind). The near future setting represent Donald's fear of the uncertain but closing foture...either that of fear of bootlegging.

    I like the use of space in the Big Noise/New York demo as well.

    I feel more use of space, harmonics, and chord progressions on the New One than Kamakiraid...although I could be wong...

    Date: Sun, November 20, 2005, 00:00:36 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Thanks for stopping by but wrong guestbook for that kinda thing, Felonious. St Al is fine with it ("and that's OK") but not here. I'm sure your post will be warmly received there and hotly discussed.


    ` jim

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 23:31:33 ET
    Posted by: felonius, ...and all that right wing hooeee...

    I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that fascist republicans suck. GW has the brown midas touch - everthing he touches turns to shit. Please fight the browning of America and help
    bring our country back. Times are tough and we need to make a stand.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 21:53:35 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    TO that I will assent. I don't listen to much FM radio, but sometimes, yeah a few minutes of KLOS or other classic rock phor phunn, the usual "Bong-brutha now dead, in prison, or gone, er, Castro-way" noise, and then Do It Again or Kid Charlemagne or My Old School (or even the poppier Rikki or Reelin'...) comes on and it's like yeah the Dan's manga has got some stayin' power... alas my own view is that they lost it--e.g. sold out--with Aja, however marvelous and professional that cocktaily schtick may be

    You know who sort of carries on a type of Dan-ish musical heritage? None other than that wizard of weird, Pat Metheny. Some of his stuff is a bit sweet, but his recent CDs feature a few numbers that sound like what CLaude Debussy hisself might sound like were he playin' a guitar synthesizer...

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 21:29:07 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Just one more plug...

    Driving home tonight after a really long day at the "office" and jamming out to the XM (Channel 45--The Loft)...Ryan Adams and the Cardinals, Ani DiFranco and then the opening chords of "Things I Miss The Most" chime in...

    Gotta say this: When you get a TOTALLY unexpected dose of the Dan out of the clear black sky, it's really quite nice...


    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 21:28:09 ET
    Posted by: moray eel, e

    Gotta love that picture of Fagen!


    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 21:16:18 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, The Crew

    Ah yes...The Hawaii Dates


    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 17:43:00 ET
    Posted by: Pam,

    I kinda think that the time spent on arranging, finding the right players, writing, rewriting, grooving & regrooving, polishing the diamonds again and again until they're perfect, shows how much Don loves his fans. Right back atcha, baby. "Love is patient, love is kind..."

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 17:41:03 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, I raking leaves...

    and I started to think that it is precisely because things like Steely Dan and guestbooks and music, plays, books, sporting events really don't matter all that much to your day-to-day life that they become in fact very very important to your life. Seriously not taking each other seriously is the best thing about the Blue.

    More deep thoughts later after I take out the trash.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 15:49:07 ET
    Posted by: X, here

    Dudes, you should all hit the showers and make it a cold one. You're takin' this SD stuff way overboard. Are you high on the glue that keeps yer doormat put or did yer teenage son shove some of his stash leftovers in yer potato salad?
    By all means, have a great weekend!

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 12:20:43 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Gina is the Big D.? Ol' Morty Muerto?....Mebbe. Death as a trashy sepulveda bimbo...stalking Marquis du Don at some not-so- restaurant...hmmm....Gina is also texmex slang mas or menos--ya hear, or used to, "Gee-nah"...when like, well one wouldn't want to go into details seein' this is a Steely Dan family values board....but imagine some eastsidah homegrrl seein' say a clip of Jenna Jameson at work: Gee-nah...........

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 12:13:16 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    What always amazes me from the Kamakiriad era is the B-side (can we still call it that if it's on a CD?) from the Tomorrow's Girls single, Confide In Me. It is completely 180 degrees from anything else Donald did in this time frame. Very organic and natural sounding, very loose, and great powerful acoustic piano.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 11:04:19 ET
    Posted by: Girlfriend, Attention all shoppers

    I was browsing ebay for some gift ideas for the hard folks on my list, at least one of whom is a Big Fan, so I thought I'd share some *tangentially Dan* related gift ideas.

    (This one is ending soon, Raj, better snatch it up for G. Lots of color choices, such as azalea, pine, Texas orange, iris, sapphire.)

    (Personally, I would have chosen a different lp cover, but what do I know?)

    (Now this is the gift that keeps on giving fer shure...brought to you by Unfogging-the-future...uh hunh.)

    Also a nice selection of 2003 tour shirts if yours is looking a little worse for wear. Rumor has it that one of the crew was willing to pay big bucks for one with the Hawaii dates. You never know what Santa (drunk on Christmas wine, natch) will bring!

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 10:27:48 ET
    Posted by: ph, it's like an awful dream

    To me Kamakiriad is the only upbeat and non-pessimisstic Dan album. Maybe I'm wrong, it could be insanely sarcastic and ironic and I'm just missing the point. That's probably it. But I like all the tracks. Sometimes I skip the first two because I get embarrased playing them in public places, but they're all spectacular IMHO. Snowbound used to be my favorite from the album, I kind of grew out of it, but I still love the bass. I really like the fact that every track has either a successor track or counterpoint somewhere on the album. The obvious one is Florida Room/On The Dunes, but I'ld also point out Trans-Island/Teahous, Countermoon/Tomorrow's Girls, and Springtime/Snowbound.

    Them Gaucho outtakes are an album unto themselves.

    Have a great weekend everybody.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 09:09:30 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    A few things...

    Sparky, I still can't get into Snowbound. I really haven't tried that hard and I'm certain if I did I'd find its genius but so far, after 12 years, haven't got the patience, my own limitations are to blame. But like so many SD songs, sometimes they just have to nest a good long while before I can approach them so I consider them little pearls waiting to be unearthed. Snowbound awaits.

    ph - you gotta be tough

    This lady who made the Brazilian comment probably cut one tune in a Samba mode with DF and declared to the world the album would be "Brazilian." Just the kind of misdirection he would welcome, twisty bastard.

    Dan - the Gaucho outtakes were faaabulous, so clean, somebody did a great job on these here tracks, and whomever you are, I thank you. Holy shyte, the drum track of Countermoon has always puzzled me, in my head I hear some better, well, different not better, choices for the trapmeister to play.

    Yes, Florida Room and Tomorrows Girls are such great grooves, so uplifting and fun. Walk Between Raindrops ain't got no flies on it either.

    Mu - couldn't agree with you more, leaks and releasing a little old chestnut now and then keep up a fanbase's interest. The Allmans and the Dead and countless other old fogey bands know this lesson well.

    It's almost like Donald doesn't want fans. Course, this is the man who said, "I don't trust my peers." Well, certainly we're not his peers in the world of song but in most respects, we are. If I had a criticism of the man, and Lord knows no one has asked me for it, I would say he lacks a bit can I say this in a respectful manner...a certain appreciation of us.

    Baba No I'm Not Bitter Rajsh

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 07:10:23 ET
    Posted by: notice, I said may be

    Because whenever you are on to something, I make it a personal matter of principle to point it out publicly.

    This said, I haven't been around much lately.
    Sorry 'bout that.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 06:44:08 ET
    Posted by: French Bastard, hmm...

    "coming 'round the corner"..."just a blur"... "a knockout"... "is forever"...

    Yeah... like a seeminlgy endless game of cat and mouse with death.

    Goddammit, Mu. You may be on to something.
    Had to say it.

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 00:42:39 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Dan: I really dig the DVD-A stereo verson on Kama - I'm not a big 5.1 fan given I was in a band for only about 2 weeks before we tried a couple of Dan tunes, realized we were not worthy and the world is a better place.

    I have to agree about the intro to Springtime - it's spectacular! I usually skip the rest of the song. Rhe DVD-A stero in my iew brings out a new dimension for both Skyway and particularly the peculiar alien funk of Countermoon - the drums are almost some old cartoon. That run from Snowbound, Tomorrow's Girls, Florida Room, the shimmering On The Dunes to the light funk of Teahouse are the cat's pajamas. Teahouse is sooo loose, it was a favorite for many years. The instrumental break & trumpet solo is about the best thing on the album. It took me awhile to rev up to the first 3 songs on the CD version - they sounded flat, but the DVD-A stereo really opened things up - a different album.

    The DVD-A of The Nightfly is miraculous as well. Given that it's DDD it's counterintuitive that the sound of the CD Nightfly was far flatter and inferior to the vinyl version (best thing I've ever heard on vinyl with the possible exception of Aja, but it's true.

    DVD-A of Gaucho really sounds alive, particualrly the tracks sans or un peu WENDEL - Babylon Sisters, Gaucho, Time Out of Mind, Third World Man

    Date: Sat, November 19, 2005, 00:19:44 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    Snowbound (in its full 5.1 surround sound mix especially) is by far the absolute best on Kamakiriad, and in fact one of the best tunes our boys have ever done in my opinion. The Snowbound/Tomorrow's Girls/Florida Room/On the Dunes section is pure bliss. The rest of the album, however, is very shaky and hit-or-miss. Trans-Island Skyway is a bit too repetitive for my tastes and I'm not much on the way it sounds. Even moreso, Countermoon's drums sound just plain horrible and the song just is not organic at all, too cold and mechanical for me. The intro to Springtime is pure absolute gold, but the rest of the song is just blah. And I'm just not very impressed with Teahouse on the Tracks.

    I was on a Gaucho kick several weeks ago, then moved on to 2VN and EMG back and forth, and now I'm on The Nightfly.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 23:46:29 ET
    Posted by: ph, the wind is rough

    Miss a few days, miss a lot here on the bluebook I guess.

    Them Gaucho outtakes are an album unto themselves.

    LaPage, for some reason I've on a Kamakiriad kick for weeks! Before that it was Gaucho for about the whole of October, and then Nov hit and I couldn't get enough of Kama. My favs are probably the three in a row, one track after your sequence...Tomorrow's Girls, Florida Room, and my absolute fav, On The Dunes.


    This new album had better be flawless, stupendeously amazing, and awesomer than awesome. Otherwise I'll be done with Steely Dan and their affiliates. No I won't. Steely Dan is the greatest band in the history and future history of this world, hands down.

    I would really like to see Walter do another solo; comments?

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 23:08:16 ET
    Posted by: Still Sparkin', Hong Kong

    Mr. Lapage - indeed, I too get stuck into albums for a month at a time and had the Kama experience over the summer. I would differ on your three in a row there though. Can't include Snowbound. I would have to go 5,6,7......or 1,2,3.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 23:06:54 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    One thing we can assume just from the way Donald shys away from bootlegs, outtakes, demos, etc. (and not even from what all else we know about him)... absolute perfectionist.

    Not that that's a bad thing. However, no need to be ashamed about leaking demos, etc. It's interesting and exciting to hear the development of a song, ideas that get nixed, etc. and it's GREAT for building buzz about an album.

    Hell, I still wish the stuff Donald doesn't want us to hear from the Gaucho sessions was officially released. It's all top notch material and worthy of its own album in my opinion.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 21:36:51 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Raj: In an interview I think in the 90s, Donald got a little testy when queried why Dan provided really no bonus or demo tracks with Citizen. All had been previously released. Donald gave a terse "that's about all we have worth releasing kinda thing."

    I've read Donald is not too trusting - very difficult to get in his inner personal circle. No idea what the deal is...

    But I imagine quite a bit of Latin stuff or am I off base - did I miss the memo???

    The recent Outtake Massacre, the "Cone of Silence" around EMG that lead to a PR disaster





    LEAKS mean the Great Dan Masses become YOUR Greatest PR Team ever!


    LEAKS mean appropriate LOVE and ADORATION from the well-schooled and well-connected!!!

    LEAKS mean more GIRL FRIDAYS than there are FRIDAYS in a YEAR!!!


    Look at Stevie Wonder. He made the mistake of releasing his latest effort "A Time 2 Love" under a shroud of secrecy and a pathetic FBI warning on the black CD disc. Despite reeasing his FINEST album in nearly 30 years (Since Songs in the Key of Life, Stevie made a only the briefest of appearances in the top 10 Billboard before tanking!


    Gina = Grim Reaper

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 20:56:32 ET
    Posted by: Rajah ,

    Thank you.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 20:53:06 ET
    Posted by: Art Pepper,

    Raj - Here's where you can get the book...

    ...and cheap, too!

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 20:08:16 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    bWay - Where can I get this book? Still in print? Lemme check. No, it ain't on Amazon. Whom do we have to kill to get this volume back? Send me an address Steve, they'll be sleeping with the fishes posthaste.

    Yeah, now that I think about it, the Brazilian thing was such a red-herring, they love fucking with us. Donald is Donald and will forever be Donald. He has a style, he's been creative and talented enough to have a recognizable and bankable style, Lord know if he farts I'll be first in line to buy it, why on earth would he deviate from that style? But the fact his website has been so silent for months speaks volumes to me, Lewis Fairlawn has been pretty much muzzled, whatever. All I can say is Donald must have experienced some really bad things in the past for him to be so paranoid. Or maybe there's a good business reason for it, I dunno. Who gave us the Donald quote dictated to his players about upcoming releases:

    "I don't care what you tell them, just don't tell them the truth."

    Help me now, but that sounds like the Bush administration to me.

    C'mon Lewis, time to throw us a crumb or two.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:50:59 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Mr. LaPage: ...then the album would sound like... ta da..... THE NIGHTLY, particularly side 2...It might be uhhhhhh tough, but I think we can take it!!!!! ;-)

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:46:01 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, season of slow pedestrian traffic NYC

    Donald and Walter on songwriting :

    There's a great piece on how these guys wtite songs .The huge book Songwriters On Songwriters by Paul Zollo is a collection of interviews for Song Talk, the Journal of the National Acadamy Of Songwriting .There's a piece done in 1989 with Walter and one ten years later With Donald and Walter just before the release of 2VN.
    This book is tremedous because it gives the personal reflections of the greatest writers of our day.The Dan stuff is as you'd imagine , humorous , intelligent and is as revealing as anything you'd have the opportunity of reading.

    I would share snippits but the book is about 400 miles away and I haven't talked to the person I lent it to in over a year.He owes me a few hundred and it's been easier to avoid the issue than be assertive.It's not surtpising that I miss the book a lot more than the money.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:34:26 ET
    Posted by: h w t, 818

    Movin' to Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon

    Hey whatz up with Lunch with Gina? I spun that lil' groove yesteryear and it's, like, harsh, man, scandalous, bitter as well as sort of creamy crisp nad coolalicious....I mean Fagen Don, who doth take a righteously freaky synth solo, is pissed at somethin'.... a broad....a she like a pro? porn babe? ex honey-pie? Donny sounds like majorly miffed in a non-trivial fashion

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:28:49 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    I can also be sensitive and often have a quiet little cry.

    Hold me.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:12:01 ET
    Posted by: Peter, Lake Tahoe Nev.

    The only thing rajah whips is Skull. Ha Ha Ha

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 19:07:50 ET
    Posted by: Rajah , L.A.

    You don't see shit, anyway I like wooden hangers they leave bigger welts, change the channel.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 18:38:34 ET
    Posted by: TV, Sin City

    I see Rajah's still in his closet beating himself up with hangers..

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 16:21:35 ET
    Posted by: hoBO wiRe tOasTer,

    'Nuff of SIRIUS: Yahoo's LAUNCH actually is not bad. Where does the discriminating hepcat set the dial? wall you start with like be-bop..a few Dizzy/Miles/Bird..cutz....ya....then to the 'Dan (too much 70's mush rokk methinx)...maybe real quick unnoticed switch to yes Burden in My Hand...rock on Chris....lost my head again......ok to zappa....not bad--too much caca-mothers stuff but once in a while some instrumentals....and you end up, as if finishing a reductio ad absurdum proof, with the gospel station: Capn' Beefheart used me like an ashtray heart.....

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 16:06:47 ET
    Posted by: hoops, breezin' through

    XM might consider the following sales pitch:

    "Putting the XM in XMas"

    Seriously, though, I have pros and cons to each of these and then a bigger con.

    I think I overall prefer the content on XM.

    My car sound system came with a Sirius receiver but I didn't activate it.

    And the biggger con is just that: On top of Cable TV, internet access, wireless, why one more communications bill?

    Unless there is an extended, long term show that is Steely Dan connected—wouldn't you hate to sign a contract for one and find out Walter Becker is DJ'ing a station on the other?—I won't waste my money on either. Besides, The Next Big Thing is Motorola and other's technology that lets you receive music from your computer on your car system. Radio Free Dandom (or the like) could be gotten on you car. That might be compelling. Until then, I can think of better things to do with my money.

    Gotta run...Thanks!


    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 15:42:56 ET
    Posted by: Dr. Phil,

    Aw man, he's really gonna git his azs kicked...

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 15:05:12 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Gretchen - you've had your Xmas about 10 times over already this year young lady. As the current reigning Mrs. Rajah, Xmas comes 365 days a year. [rimshot] Thank you. Anyway, I thought I suspended your Internet privileges, what is this, an open insurrection? Back in that kitchen woman or I'll have to take measures.

    Wives today,
    Reach Back Like a Pimp Rajah

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 13:39:47 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, where's that confounded bridge?!!

    OK, I've been wanting XM for a year, so Rajah, I'll make your choice easy for Christmas.....and a great bargain, too!

    Did anyone ever tune into the (now defunct) "Deep Seventies" staion on live 365? That was what I remember FM radio being all about, and the music there was the same music FM was created to showcase. God, I miss the days of non regulated radio, it's where I got my musical education. Now, the airwaves are filled with such dismal offerings, I wonder how young music enthusiasts will develop their interests with a steady diet of the same 15 or so "classic rock" songs and even worse, the weak sounding pop-rock clones and Ashley Simpsons of the world. Here's hoping XM and Sirius will bring new inspiration.


    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 13:24:07 ET
    Posted by: Mr. Lapage,

    As I anxiously await DF's new offering, I've been listening almost exclusively lately to Kamakiriad. Anyone else's SD listening habits consist of listening to one cd almost exclusively for, say, a month or so then moving on to the next? Three months ago it was Katy Lied, last month Aja, now Kamakiriad.

    I think you'd have to look long and hard to find 3 better consecutive tracks than Kama's 4-5-6. Snowbound, Tomorrow's Girls, and my wife's fav, Florida Room.

    If Don's new one is close to Kama, I'll be happy. Should there be any concern since Walt is not contributing?

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 12:45:25 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Thanks Raj for the answer, that's pretty interesting.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 12:02:27 ET
    Posted by: health, USA

    archy it i, and i like you!

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 11:46:29 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Appreciate that clarification, Jenny, I stand corrected.

    Date: Fri, November 18, 2005, 08:57:51 ET
    Posted by: Jenny, Fredneck, MD

    Raj: J in MillerVille is NOT me. Jenny

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 20:34:00 ET
    Posted by: Rajah , L.A.

    Jenny, just to show you we are not all jaded, cynical bastards, well, most of the time we are but here's what we know from the Donald and Walter about their songwriting process. It began with a shared love for music of course, of all types really, that's very important, that ecclecticism plus literature, history of western culture, humor and science fiction. All born out of the 50s, the Beat generation poets like Ferlinghetti and that other guy, I forget who. A certain subculture that questioned our government, our ethics, our lifestyle back then and which I think we need more of today, that questioning of the status quo is so important. Their early songs, those sometimes nasty bits and pieces on the various bootlegs were "too funny" and quirky for their own good. I'm quoting. Nobody picked them up. So they jumped back to a more pop-ish idiom and wrote songs in a short story kind of format, sacrificing the narrative at times, prying the melody open with great difficulty and shoving lyrics in, commencing with, as HWT really stated so concisely, either an idea for a melody or lyric or both and finding many times that a cue from the a few bars of music informed ultimately as to its lyrical content. Like Gaslighting Abbey, they had an "icy" chorus Donald states, they added a funky verse and so it came to be. As to structure, they remain in the Ellington and even Jelly Roll Morton camp, these are their comments, not mine mind you, with lots of breaks and embellishments that surprise the listener, like East St. Louis Too-Doo-Loo by Duke, the song never goes where you think it's going to go. Best quote from the boys, "a little twist makes it interesting."

    This is what I see.

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 17:16:02 ET
    Posted by: Ra j ah,

    Soory, that was me.

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 17:15:23 ET
    Posted by: J,

    J - Donald describes it on the Piano Jazz CD, a tasty little treat given us last year via Marian McPartland and I'll summarize it for you briefly as soon as I put out this forrest fire on my desk...

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 16:34:10 ET
    Posted by: Your other nieghbor, Bud Ville

    first, they write the music
    then, they put lyrics after writing the words
    but only after thinking about it
    sometimes, tho
    they write words down
    and then put music to it
    which then makes the words lyrics
    sometimes they change the lyric words
    so they fit their idea more
    and sometimes the music changes

    and SOMETIMES they drop the music
    change the lyric words
    (so they go back to being just words)
    change the music
    rewrite the words to be lyrics

    cuss a lot in the studio
    cuss and cuss and cuss and cuss


    when the last cigarette starts to burn the filter
    they say "fuck it,
    I'm going home

    that's how they do it.

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 16:10:45 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Thanks for the amusing story hwt, now can anyone answer my question for real?

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 14:52:27 ET
    Posted by: Your Neighbor, Fredback, MD

    Which one is which?

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 14:39:45 ET
    Posted by: Jenny, Fredneck, MD

    C, Y'know, my gut reaction was Peter, Paul & Mary (given that I grew up in a hippy tree hugger guitar teacher mom household), but not wanting to get laughed out of the board, I googled it. Seems it is credited to Leadbelly from the way back. Thanks, though, for bringing me back to kidhood for a bit! Jenny

    and BTW everybody: I've got two new cats and I've named them Deacon and Fagen...

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 06:46:29 ET
    Posted by: C,


    Stewball was a racehorse / I'm glad he was mine / he never drank water / he only drank wine... that's the Hollies, right?


    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 03:34:30 ET
    Posted by: Sam, Hitchcock Railroad

    Mr. Gambino are you on drugs?

    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 02:36:32 ET
    Posted by: zimaletto, USA

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    Date: Thurs, November 17, 2005, 00:39:12 ET
    Posted by: Still Sparkin', Under rare, clear skies

    Alkali that was a good read...

    ....don't forget the two Josies (2nd one in Tomorrow's Girls)

    Raj...yes, horse has been mentioned. Glad to see it's still alive - which will last longer ?

    Very glad I got out of the heated beat debate- this is the worst nightmare of childhood theory classes. Actually pulled an exercise book out a few months ago from oh, a few years back and realized at 12 my theory was better than it is now.

    Philippine Dan.....find any harmonica friendly bars in India ?

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 23:52:33 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Flashing back...

    Date: Mon, May 19, 2003, 03:43:00 ET
    Posted to the BlueBook by: Philfrance,
    Subject: Mojo: DF writing with Hirth Matinez

    At first I didn't think you would care that much about that as the
    big thing now is EMG, but in the april issue of Mojo, they say that
    Donald is currently writing songs with Hirth Martinez. If you want to know how that mysterious Mr Martinez sounds, you can try John Simon's own website where you will hear some soundbytes from the albums he produced for that man. There is even a recommendation from Donald himself who says something fine about Hirth.

    A la prochaine


    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 19:48:59 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    I forget, did we know about a horse named Steely Dan???

    C'mon, Daddy needs a new pair of shoes...

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 18:18:43 ET
    Posted by: h w t, Zirkus Zirkus

    "Anybody know how the writing progress worked with Becker and Fagen?"

    Yeah quite a few "insiders" on ye olde Blue are privy to that information, son. See, it was like dis: Donny, after he sobers up and kicks Girl Friday out of the condo, reads one of dem fancy fruitcake novels...beatniks or yeah like private eye stuff, manga....then he head to the...what...rhodes? baby grand whatever and hits a few mi 7 -9 chords....a few broadway flashes... keep it from being too vegas-y baybe...some ellington 9ths....avoid the beatles -gospely sap...yeah..lay down that beat-noir enigma...condensed....nocturne....more femme fatalle..think what a six-string biotch or better phil woods could do with this...vibes. yes...listen to some miles and silver---could lift this, that.....around 4 or so crack open a ...whaddya think---Pils or Pinot Noir ...or maybe Tanqueray and Tonic...maybe a ....whiffski left over from Girl Friday's .....sweetness...and then .....16 bars, 32....yeah....think gershwin man..not aretha F.....and do this for few days then try to track down Walt somewhere......hawaii? german FKK club? palm springs rehab? who knows

    that's how it goes down junior

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 17:04:49 ET
    Posted by: I.E.,

    Can anyone here tell me more about three songs by Donald Fagen and Hirth Martinez? They are "The Girl Who Dreams Out Loud," "Islands in the Blue" and "Do Wrong Shoes."

    Thank you.

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 16:46:19 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Clas: Help J out - Didn't Bernard Purdie and Chuck Rainey really write and arrange all the songs?

    If you look REALLY close on those old LPs. you'll see the small print in the corner of the back cover: "as told to..."

    A. Excellent. Don't forget "brain dead dawn"

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 13:17:27 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Anybody know how the writing progress worked with Becker and Fagen? Did one write the lyrics? did one usually contribute more then the other? Or was it totally 50/50?

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 13:03:35 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Haha, A. that's a hilarious story.

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 12:58:04 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    When in the damn hell did Wendy's start serving onion rings??

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 12:28:07 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    So I meet my friends Jerry and Larry for a bite at Monks diner last night, traffic by the way was an ordeal. (Probably due to the “Russia” exhibit at the Guggenheim)
    Just crossing Broadway had dire potential and it didn’t help that every person in front of me was slower than the one I just negotiated around.
    Luckily for me I had my mp3 to ease the strain of stress-
    I had “PEG” thumpin’, thanks YGK for the tip.

    My friends were already sitting at our usual table, both with cups and both with that “what the hell took ya?” look on their faces.
    I apologized blaming my delay on Russians and slow-luckless-pedestrians.
    I ordered a Doppio cappuccino.
    No sooner had I placed my order when Jerry starts in on his daily installment of inquisitive observations.
    He says “you know, this is good hot chocolate but, they should replace it with Ovaltine.
    and shouldn’t the Ovaltine jar be oval instead of round? Wouldn’t it make more sense?”
    then Larry starts “no, because then the screw-off top wouldn’t work. What should be changed is the way they pick up the garbage in front of buildings. They wait until Thursday to do my street, wouldn’t it make more sense to do the odd numbered buildings on odd days and even on even?”
    Jerry says “no, because not all the months have the same number of days, it would be confusing.”
    I sip my coffee, pretty much expecting the conversation to take this route.
    By the time our waitress came to take our orders I had just about finished my Doppio.
    Jerry ordered a Coke and fries. Larry a hamburger. Invariably, they order this way because they end up picking off of each others plates and together they have one normal meal.
    Knowing this I ordered the Schmaltz samwich and kosher pickle and another Doppio.
    I can see Jerry has finished his hot chocolate because he’s tilting his now empty cup at a ridiculous 15 degrees angle and making those obnoxious slurping sounds.
    He senses me and Larry staring at him because he immediately puts the cup down and says “you know, they should invent cups that have a raised filter on the bottom of them to catch the residual grinds….it would work for coffee, tea and hot chocolate…..”
    Before Jerry could finish Larry says “I have a better idea; just order a soda”
    Jerry says “I don’t like soda on its own, just as you have that thing about matching the right soda with certain foods”
    Larry defends himself vehemently claiming “that’s right, coke goes better with hamburgers and fries than Pepsi does. and Pepsi tastes better with hotdogs but not with onion rings except Wendy’s onion rings” Jerry protests almost yelling “no, Wendy’s onion rings are only good with milk shakes unless it’s strawberry milk shake…..”
    The food finally arrives I thank the waitress because my two idiot friends are practically wrestling now.
    And that’s when I decided that the only way I can make them stop is if I say something they have no idea about.
    Still having the ring and hum of “Peg” in my head I start
    “You know, it’s curious how some lyrics and lines are repeated in Dan tunes, don’t you think?”
    While I had there attention, I pressed on
    “for instance the line “to hell and gone” is found on West of Hollywood and again on Lucky Henry and places like Culver City, County cook and French towns are mentioned in both.
    They were both listening and munching on fries now…
    “Or the words “Golden-boy” is mentioned in Hard up case and Book of liars….
    Book of liars also has the lyric “Frozen Dawn” as does Lucky Henry….
    How about the line “Down in the bottom” is in Down at the bottom and Cringemaker….
    Or how about “you be the show girl and I’ll be Sinatra” and “I was kid clean and you were Ann De Siecle”
    I was gonna keep going but then Jerry poured ketchup on the fries. Larry protested and called him a philistine.
    I got up having had enough left them there with there arguments and the bill, slipped out the door without them noticing, put my head phones on hit the repeat button and bounced down the street to “Peg”


    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 10:16:26 ET
    Posted by: ygk, nyc

    therefore, howard, the melody line/piano riff would be 2 eighth notes, quarter, quarter

    ba-da ba ba

    I don't have a nice site to post to......

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 09:42:25 ET
    Posted by: Sergio, Farmers Market

    Yes He's on Drugs for depression and lifestyle choices.

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 09:34:10 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    hwt: congratulations, you've managed to desribe a generic jazz rhthym pattern.....triplets aren't there always, don't forget the dotted eighth....
    kick drum always on the strong beats? what r u smokin?

    Howard: jeez, man....
    !! !! !!

    !=quarter notes.....


    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 09:28:43 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Howard - that was actually my friend Pat McDonald that you were quoting - not me. He's a whole lot more up to speed on these things than myself. And what he said was that from a performance standpoint, it feels like 6/4 to him, BUT, either could be technically correct. I will send him a link to this site and he can get directly involved in stating his case instead of me pasting his emails to me. Perhaps then we can keep this unresolved case going well into 2006! Wouldn't that be interesting.

    Does anyone have the damn sheet music to this tune?? What does it say at the top?

    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 08:42:41 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    C: Stern

    Bad news breakin' [clap][clap]


    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 08:36:22 ET
    Posted by: Howard, not on Sirius

    My last post on the whole TVN time sig debate (honest):

    None of the people still sticking to the 6/8 or 6/4 idea have explained how they would write the rhythm of the melody line for a bar or two. Make your case! Write out a bar or too, then we have something concrete to talk about.

    Listening to the song again, I hear the bass drum marking out a clear pattern in threes per bar. Actual rhythm (particularly clear in the intro) is (in 3/4):

    > > >
    e. s e. s e. s

    e. = dotted 8th, s = 16th. Strong evidence for 3/4, no?

    Josey - you wrote "6/8 is compound meter and even though there are 6 beats in each measure, you really only have 2 strong beats... (ONE two three FOUR five six). It ain't that fer sure."

    Exactly! The point is, this argument applies to 6/8 AND 6/4. They are both compound time sigs with the bar divided into two strong beats. The only difference is the beats last longer. Same as 4/4 and 4/2, or 3/8 and 3/4 - there's no difference in beat grouping and accents etc, it's the same thing but with everything lasting twice (or half) as long.


    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 05:34:07 ET
    Posted by: Clas,


    Rajah - Howard's on Sirius? What are you talking about brother? Are you on drugs?




    Date: Wed, November 16, 2005, 05:31:04 ET
    Posted by: C @ the shrink express,


    Alkali - re Peg; yes, right on.


    Royal Scam, everybody loved Royal Scam, even if they didn't know who Steely "who?" Dan was. Royal Scam was THE party swinger. Loud.

    Someone said, back in those days; – I wish Chicago had developed into something like this (the horns and the syncopes).


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 23:53:49 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    I'm sold.

    See you next year on the tour, don't be a stranger here, dear friend.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 21:18:06 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Potomacide

    Miss you two, pally...

    Well, on Sirius you'll get not only Howard but a nice goomba channel called "Frank's Place"...THAT was the one that had me twisting in the summer wind, cuz...


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 21:07:36 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Southie-boy, we miss you so much out here but comforted and pleased you are doing so well back in DC, I spent 8 years there so I love that town. But now what am I gonna do for my 7 mile commute sans Howard? Bro, he had Stevie Wonder on the other week, other guests like James Taylor, MACCA, many others, I need to have access to HS.

    Think Donnie-boy might have the balls to do Howard's show? Um, probably not.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 20:46:27 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, ZithromaxRUs

    Hello El Turbino!

    Hope you're feeling better...I'm sure Sirius and XM have somewhat similar offerings musically (although I liked the mix better on the XM channels I previewed online...40: Deep Album Rock, 45: XM Cafe, 50: The Loft, all the Jazz & Blues channels, 76: Eclectic, 94: Caliente! and the rest, ad infinitum)...I have however lost my taste entirely for Howard Stern, therefore he was not a factor for me...The Major League Baseball option however WAS a factor...There is something very reminiscent of my youth for me about listening to a baseball game on the radio...Even now...


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 20:18:44 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    I'm in a quandry here, South, what about when Howard Stern goes to satellite in January and he's on SIRIUS and there I am on XM? Can I get the music I want on SIRIUS?

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 19:34:20 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Oh Michael...

    And if YOU'RE on the fence with satellite radio, here's the exact unit I paid $69 for available at Fry's Outpost for NINETEEN BUCKS!


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 19:15:39 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Off the fence

    Being the impulse shopper that I am, I can't believe it took me so long to break down and buy a satellite radio but man, is this thing awesome...Opted for XM 'cause I liked their online playlists better and because the unit I picked up (Roady XT) moves quite easily from the car to the house...And it's about the size of half a deck of cards...What an incredible diversion from the CD player and (horrors!) the radio...Digital-quality sound and an ENDLESS variety of tunes...I'm hooked...Bad


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 17:47:30 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    let me clear it up for you, ygk

    the kick drum can be on any of the 4 beats (or all), the snare on 2 and 4, but the jazz ride is dotted 1/8 note triplets, but i think thats a bit too deep for ya

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 17:22:37 ET
    Posted by: john, chicago

    Wilco's new live cd is the remarkable. I remember Don and walt saying in an interview that they had picked up a wilco cd.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 15:31:10 ET
    Posted by: Stoner Dude,

    ...bubble bubble bubble...HIT.

    So dude man think of like this big wall, kay, and like on one side of the wall it's all flowers and grass and tress and birds and shit but like on the other side it's all like, dark and cold and dreary, y'know, like Pacoima or Canarcie or some junk...and on one side of the wall, ah, wait, no, there's the happy people with cool stuff and, aw wait, aw shit...dude, pass me the bong, I'm one hit away from a concept.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 14:47:14 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Josey: I like the sixman's take, 'cause I can feel what he sez...

    Angel: That's exactly right. Each album - in PART because of the different session folks has a unique feel. I play Kamakiriad backwards - it works better.

    I'd argue that the funky keys at clavinet, Rhodes, and piano as much as the guitar work sets Royal Scam apart - the addition of full horn and band tracks consistently, so the album has a full big fusion band feel with big instrumental breaks in the middle of the songs - part of the reason those songs translated so well into the 90s tours.

    TvN: multiple voices and high production sheen, cool jazz horns, and funk backbeat whereas EMG is more blues, 40s Charles Brown kinda jazz with a rock backbeat provided by Carlock.

    Gaucho has a Broadway muzak feel to it.

    Katy feels like an intimate small band Blue Note kinda recording...

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 13:28:46 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Concept Album:
    Can't you hear a stoner band sitting around smokin' sayin', "An Album, like, what a Concept"


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 13:25:00 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Actually, hwt, the jazz feel you mentioned is on the "Ands" and not necessarily the 2 & 4.....

    just to clear that up.....


    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 12:35:47 ET
    Posted by: angel,

    On the subject of Concept albums. Even though Donald Fagen mentions that Kamikiriad is a concept type album, his songs do indeed stand alone and were in some cases written in different decades (ie Snowbound). To me the Moody Blues made concept albums. Obviously, Days of Future Past. their songs are difficult to split apart, due to them not having clear beginnings and endings. When I put To Our Children's Children's Children on my MP3 player, I finally had to delete several cuts, because out of context, some of it just doesn't work well. In regard to playing a concept album in "shuffle", forget it! :-)

    Steely Dan instead of having concept albums almost seem to have styles of each album. Katy Lied and the piano, Royal Scam and the guitar, to name 2.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 12:31:14 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Rumor Breaker

    Is it true that Steely Dan and The Eagles had some sort of rivalry at some point, or maybe just liked giving eachother some crap? Thought I heard that somewhere. I don't totally mind The Eagles but The Dan definitely crush them musically.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 12:13:01 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    hwt - I'm fairly certain that Pat was saying that about 4/4 as a "general rule" and I'm certain he knows there can be exceptions. For what that's worth - which is nothing.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 11:20:58 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Concerning concept albums:

    I'd say it's pretty much up to the listener to decide if the album is really a concept. John Lennon said the only reason "Sgt. Pepper" was a concept was because they said so....but when it all comes down to it, it's up to you. The listener gets to decide wheather or not the songs are connected.
    There are a few though that I'd say strictly meet the concept feel: The Who's "Quadrophenia", "Tommy" and Pink Floyd's "The Wall". I suppose I'm blurring the lines of rock opera and concept, but what's the difference?
    Personally, with "Aja", I'd say some of it is connected. I really like the way "Black Cow", "Aja" and "Deacon Blues" flow together. Maybe you could call it a mini-concept, haha. I don't know, it's just fun to try and decide or find out how songs are or can be connected.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 11:00:57 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    aw well not enough coffee and E & J as of yet

    that is, 4/4 can be accented in different ways; a 4/4 rock beat (accents on 1 and 3) is quite different than jazz (light accents on 2 and 4); and even in 3/4 one can do the polka-like sound (ONE two three), or a more even waltz (one two three). But 2vn doesn't sound remotely waltzy or polka-like--that's because the predominant phrasing goes for 6 beats, if not 12.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 10:56:41 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    that's not entirely correct, regardless of what Charlie's stixman sez. (Oh mann do Devil Went down da Geor-gah... Yee Haw..."chick-en in da breadbasket pickin' up dough..." gotta luv dat).

    4/4 can be accented in different ways; a 4/4 rock beat (accents on 1 and 3) is quite different than jazz (light accents on 2 and 4); and evne in 3/4 one can do the polka like sound (ONE two three) two 3) or a more even waltz (one two three). But 2vn doens sound remotely waltzy or polka like--that because the predominant phrasing goes for 6 beats, if not 12.

    6/8 is compound meter, yes, but there are no rules that it must be strongly accented on 1 or 4 or any beat: in fact a samba-pulse depends on sort of even accents as in 2vn. I would agree with 6/4 perhaps but the notes and rests being used seem like 1/8 and 1/16 notes more than like 1/4 or 1/2 notes.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 10:08:19 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    And, for all two of you who might possibly, somehow, some way, give some inkling of a damn about what time signature 2VN is, here's the email I got from my buddy that drums with the CDB who's qualifications, aside from being a professional drummer, are that he attended Berklee, studied with Gary Chaffee (Chaffee taught Vinnie, Steve Smith, etc.), served some time in marching band, and more. Pat McDonald is his name, by the way.


    I had a listen just minute ago and I'm gonna say it feels and sounds like
    6/4 to me. It COULD be a slow 3/4 but I think it would be easier on the
    eyes to read it in 6. It's definitely NOT a fast 3/4. The pulse is wrong
    for it to work that way.

    The downbeat of each measure is the strongest beat on the measure in

    4/4 would be:

    3-moderately stronger(but not as strong as beat 1)

    3/4 would be:

    3-weak ("Happy Birthday" would be a good example)

    6/8 is compound meter and even though there are 6 beats in each measure, you
    really only have 2 strong beats or counts---1 and 4 (ONE two three FOUR
    five six). It ain't that fer sure.

    You COULD count it as a slow 3/4 and feel it like this:

    ONE and two and three and ONE and two and three and

    But given the overall feel of the track and the rhythmic activity happening,
    I'm gonna say 6/4 just makes more sense from a performance standpoint.
    Either one can be technically correct but 6/4 makes more sense from a
    musical standpoint for me. I'd rather see it written in 6. Fagen sez
    6/4 correct? Hell, he wrote it so I'd be tempted to go with him on
    it.....; )

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 09:37:44 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    hwt - I'd say you never heard his release from 1981 or 82 called Night And Day or anything after it! Joe Jackson has an extremely diverse catalog of music and there's nothing about it that's simplistic. If you're so inclined, go have a listen to Night And Day, Blaze Of Glory, Symphony, Heaven And Hell, and Night And Day II just for starters, and then I'd be real interested in hearing the case for "lightweight and simplistic". It's not even remotely close to what he was doing with the original Joe Jackson Band.

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 02:59:26 ET
    Posted by: Piglet,

    Alkali---Re: Peg vs Josie debate. Couldn't have said it better....right Dan?

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 02:45:20 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    ...had you for a moment...didn't I?

    Date: Tues, November 15, 2005, 01:56:10 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    hobo - I'm gratified to finally know who you are, Stoli certainly, but not last night at Tull and not for a very long time dear friend, my doctors deny me its use, like caffeine, salt, fried victuals, saturated fat, and, truth to tell, I don't really miss it all that much...I live...I thrive, the Zithormax's effects wane, so beware my bite, caro.

    But I feel your love and you will feel mine dear anon friend, this is no arena to engage this poor troubador.

    Shall we discuss your wife, dear friend?

    I thought not.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 23:37:14 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Jackson, Joe's music seems more akin to the Dan's pop side, as on like Katy Lied; his tunes are a bit lightweight and simplistic. Where be Joe's Boddhisattva or Royal Scam or Don't Take me Alive or Caves of Altaimra or Aja, etc.? the whole new wave thing was a bit obnoxious. If I had me druthers I'd rather watch like the Dead (what's left of 'em) or Jethro Tull with Raj while swillin' Stoli and diggin' the chicks in their stevie nicks witchy weaves than have to endure some peppy new wave british stuff. To be honest, I haven't heard his latest music. It's all good, or at least some of it is, and no hate, but it's just a different vibe.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 18:09:16 ET
    Posted by: , ...

    It's Sting's... too bad, real curious about Green Flower Street

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 17:59:03 ET
    Posted by: DWß, Green Flower Straße

    He recorded Sting and Fagen compositions...

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 17:54:27 ET
    Posted by: hoops, breezin' through

    Joe Jackson is awesome. I loved his music in the 1980s, lost touch in the early nineties, touched base with his music in 2000 when he covered "King of The World" (the only cover of an SD song to be as good as the original, IMHO, and acoording to one of the JJ fan websites, WB was there for one ofthe shows where he performed KOTW and supposedly "Junkie Girl" ), and came to a whole new appreciation of his work about 16 months ago. And when I saw him with Todd Rundgren last Spring, my thought was that it should have been JJ and not TR as the co-headliner, if DF was going to do a tour solo of WB.

    Sweet's bio is a great place to start if you are new to SD and want to start at ground floor about learnining about them. Sure, as you become more familiar you will form your own opinions (and Sweet does present some opinons as fact) and learn more nuances. But every SD fan should get a copy.

    Someone posted that "Aja" was a concept album...which again brings up the thread (here or was it elsewhere)—what is your definition of a "concept album?" I would say it has a certain cohesiveness but it doesn't fully meet my idea of a concept album. Maybe your concept of a concept album is a different concept. :-) Discuss?

    Be well, buckeroos!


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 17:33:14 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Alkali - I'm a huge Joe Jackson fan and I believe a larger percentage of Danheads tend to be fans of his also. Never thought about the similarities between Look Sharp and Daddy... , but there does seem to be similarities. And, it's fairly well known that Joe Jackson is a big fan of Fagen and Becker as he's covered some of their selections before so it's probably not a stretch to link those two.

    As for the time signature thing - it's amusing and amazing that we've been able to stretch that one out this far. A close friend of mine happens to be the drummer for Charlie Daniels. Great guy and one sick MF of a drummer. He may chime in on the conversation as I had mentioned it to him earlier today to get his thoughts and he thought it to be in 6/4 - but he also wanted to take a listen to it again before confirming that. He's familiar with the tune but hasn't listened to it in awhile. Anyway, fear not! It could go on for a few more months.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 17:28:46 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Cause he's more likely than not moving behind some controlled substance is why. Fifty-seventh street, fifty-schmeventh street. What about a nice brisk stroll up East River Drive up to Carl Schurtz park to score a dime bag of hash...memories...

    I saw Jethro Tull for first time last night at the new Kodak Theatre in Hollywood. Nice house, 3-balconies, California Mission interiors, great acoustics. Ian Anderson is showing some age, he doesn't have the wind to blow that flute all night, spazz around like a chicken AND belt out an encore of Locamotive Breath but that's why the band has slowed the tempo juuuust ever sooo slightly and he has his drummer locked behind a plexiglass box. Violinist Lucia Micarelli, Madonna mi, what a nice briazziole, is his special guest, she's really a big part of the band, little snippet of a girl but wow what a freak, barefoot, little pink dress, Stevee had that ass-crack cam workin hard. She played a nice set of chamber pieces, the whole band started out real intimate but in the second set they did a knock-off instrumental of Kashmir by Zep to a turn, little 32 bars of Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen, Bouree by Bach then his version hard upon; wait, they did the theme from The Godfather, yes Rajah almost lost his coglioni there.

    Then Hymn 43, Acqualung, he can't stretch his voice out too much anymore and admitted as much on an NPR interview. Martin Barre was awesome, great keyboardist he had who played...yes the accordian and recorder. But the rhythmn section...FEH!

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 16:35:34 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Alkali: "Peg" is one of the best 'walkin tunes' around....drop the needle on it at 57th and 8th ave, and strut all the way across 57th Street - I used to do this years ago, and it just makes you smile....all the while making the rest of the world wonder, "what's up? why is he so happy?"

    try it.....


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 16:01:54 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    The time signature debate was interesting for the first month or so…..
    But now it’s getting a little stale if you ask me.

    Josie vs. Peg:
    I don’t think that there’s any debate here, Peg wins hands down.
    Now Josie isn’t a bad tune but Peg is just so much more interesting.
    From the opening Gil Evansesque chord sequence accompanied by that background wave sound and bass slide!
    You can’t go wrong with an opening like that.
    Then that cymbal crash on the “pin shot” lyric followed by the clavinet and lyricon. The song just flows incessantly and just won’t quit.
    What a groove.
    Although I like Becker’s playing on Josie it sounds much too Gilmourish after just a little while, same thing with his playing on F.M.
    Graydon’s solo on Peg is astonishing. His first few bars seem to be a search for just the right pocket to settle into, almost as if he’s trying to make up his mind before he decides on that perfect cmaj7.
    And at the end of his solo he repeats the same run twice with just an added couple of notes as if to finish a sentence.
    Wow. It’s almost conversational.
    McDonald’s and Griffin’s background especially at the end of Peg is so tight and compact that there’s almost an off-beat produced by a sort of delayed effect.
    Very cool.
    I have to give it to Josie for those exceptional horns, however.
    What i'm not crazy about either of these two tunes is the lyrics.
    both are too obvious, where Josie is racy and suggestive, Peg is honest and lament laden.

    I don’t know how familiar anybody here is with Joe Jackson. I like him a lot.
    But, the first time I heard the title track to “Look sharp” I noticed a very interesting and obvious similarity between it and “Daddy don’t live in that NYC no more” in one particular part of that song.
    It’s at the beginning of each new verse.
    For instance:

    Big shot, tell you what
    tell me what goes on around here

    Is eerily if not identical to

    He can't get tight every night
    Pass out on the barroom floor

    Speaking of “Daddy don’t live…”
    This song has Becker written all over it! The lyric, the bluesy flavor and all of those guitars layered one on top of the other.
    This could have easily been on 11 TOW. and sung by him.

    Just a thought


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 15:28:53 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    I spotted Rajahs entry about poor Vic. Such an unsung hero. Speaking of which-what abour Roger nichols? I know he does get a little more mention-but he deserves EVEN more.
    I loaded up 'Any Major Dude' onto this digital music thing (very descriptive) and took out a lot of Roger digi-magic.
    The result was good, but just...not right.
    Then I sat there for a while wondering why I'd bothred, but I got something out of it, in a sense, so it's worthwhile.
    Poit being-maybe it's the digi freak in me- but Roger Nichols really is 'immortal'.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 12:32:21 ET
    Posted by: C,


    Ooops Captain Obvious, you already said that. Sorry.


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 12:30:25 ET
    Posted by: C @ Barely Town,


    J - check out the Brian Sweet's BIO:


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 11:53:42 ET
    Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laughing at the frozen rain

    Hmmm, call me crazy, but when someone asks if there's a bio of Steely Dan available it seems like maybe someone should point out the Brian Sweet book---an actual, you know, bio (even if some folks do add the qualifier "alleged").

    Yeah, I know it has its critics who say it's full of half-truths and/or made-up stuff, but it's an option. I also know many folks have read it and enjoyed it for what it is and I count myself among those. And though B&F didn't actively participate or authorize it, I think it definitely has its place in the world of Dandom, especially for the newer fan not already so enmeshed in mounds and mounds of Steely trivia obsessively amassed through the years leaving only tiny little aisles of walking space through the home.

    Check it out at Amazon where you can actually "LOOK INSIDE!"...

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 11:35:18 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Thanks to ph and Gina for your answers, I will check out those sites.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 11:14:16 ET
    Posted by: Gina, Sun Mountain

    Clas, yes, that was quite some time ago. See link above :-)

    J, ever tried Metal Leg for info from way back then?
    The official pages for sure, yes, but Metal Leg's also a fine source for stuff.
    Happy scrolling :-)

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 10:29:38 ET
    Posted by: echoes from the future, the sign post up ahead

    Get in that kitchen and clean it up, I said get in that kitchen and clean it up you Guinea Brat!

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 10:11:05 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    B'way Steve: Thanks for your posting. You've clarified a lot of things for me in just a few short paragraphs. Your clear and down-to-earth approach would go down well in Manchester!! Nice the Blue has someone who knows his stuff without being OTT.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 09:25:35 ET
    Posted by: ph, drifting outward with the tide...

    J.: About the most information you'll find about Becker/Fagen is on the SD website: read the FAQ and History and other articles.

    As for definetely IS a concept album. In fact, I would say every album after Can't Buy a Thrill (including the solos) were concepts, as each has album has a predominant theme running through it's songs.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 09:02:31 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Does anyone know of any descent biograhies on Becker and Fagen. I just want to know more about these guys that are so damned cool, alot of mystery seems to surround I wrong?
    Who here plays instruments? List 'em, it would be interesting to see.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 08:56:49 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Does anyone know the story behind "Aja", the title, the cover photo..kind of fascinating, almost makes it seem like a concept album.

    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 08:26:37 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Mu - your comments about "One two three four ONE TWO" etc are all fine. Yes, the final two accented notes fit with the handclaps etc. Please explain how you go from this to deducing that the time signature is 6/4 - it makes no sense to me.

    I've written out your example in 3/4 and 6/8 (see below). Are you really saying that you think the second example (6/8) in the link below makes more sense than the first?

    Notice how in 3/4, the last two accented notes are paired (a naturtal grouping based on the time sig), whereas in 6/8 they are the last two of a group of three notes. You think this makes more sense?!

    Let's cut to the chase - how would you write out the rhythm of the first bit of the melody line ("bad news breaking")? What time sig and what note lengths?

    My vote is 3/4: e e e e ' '
    e = 8th note
    ' = 8th note rest


    Date: Mon, November 14, 2005, 07:34:26 ET
    Posted by: C @ Barely Town,


    Gina, are you talking about the Steely Dan being on Letterman, it must have been over ten years ago... ? Fy Pharaoh Schaffer in the middle of his keyboard pyramid saying;

    -They're the best. The best.

    They haven't been on the show since, no?


    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 19:38:34 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    YGK: I'll go with Dr. Fagen and 6/4 then, dotted half note pulses and all. I pictured 3/4 conducting - and it reminds me of yesterday when our Houston area PBS station had the audio and video feeds crossed. Someone was cooking with hilarious commentary!


    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 17:12:22 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY


    Oh mercy! Do forgive me for going beyond the scope of the immediate discussion a little and going a bit off topic! Because of course nobody else in this whole forum ever dares stray off course ever so slightly!

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 16:30:00 ET
    Posted by: DWB, ...,kenny,45034,22.html

    if debate is on recess, you can click the link above, have a cup of coffee and read about these two white men......

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 16:08:02 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    *Sigh* Yes, M'ore, yes.......

    But also, if you listen to the bass line:

    bahhhhhhm, ba de ba ba-ba
    bahhhhhhm, ba de ba ba-ba

    and conduct the leisurely 3/4 (6/4).....

    the underpinning of the conducting makes sense.....

    you're correct about the 4+2, but the METER wouldn't be that, conductor wouldn't conduct that.......



    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 15:41:20 ET
    Posted by: oops,


    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 15:40:17 ET
    Posted by: Piglet,

    Dan- I thought the Peg vs Josie debate was about the grove. Not about the back up singing.

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 14:26:55 ET
    Posted by: Gina, Acoustic Caves Mountain

    Howdy BwaySteve, thanks a lot, it's online already :-)
    It serves as a very very fine example of how arrangements can make the difference whether musicians establish a 'sound', like Steely Dan has a distinct 'sound', so did Glenn Miller create a 'sound' of his own. But this is what i love about arrangements, it's a musician's signature ...

    although i am trying to get a hold of the right people to authorize me using the Jerry Gray composition on the Glenn Miller article, it's not really infringement of any laws if one tries to share one's enthusiasm of education received and merely spreading the word...

    so here's that Glenn Miller song as well, String Of Pearls... i can really HEAR Steely Dan do this, using guitar as well holding one of the melody lines... just another one of those magical moments to turn on the tv, the Letterman Show and there they are, this mini big band and it's staring ya in the face of initial disbelief, but your eyes don't deceive ya, it's Steely Dan alright on the Letterman show. And living in Europe, where any SD news didn't travel that fast, this tv performance was endorphine in its purest form.

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 13:55:36 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Re: Josie vs. Peg

    There exists a fundamental dichotomy to the feminine mind: Peg is the "good"-girl-next door. Josie, on the other hand, the "evil" slut from the wrong of the tracks. Peg = Shirley; Josie = Laverne. (Or Rizzo from Grease.). They both have their advantages and disadvantages. (Indeed, one could argue that the the Laverne- experienced "bad girl" is represented by Becker, and the Peg-innocent "good girl" by Fagen, at least metaphorically). The interaction of these two "forces"--somewhat dualistic in a Cartesian fashion (Shirley as Soul/thesis; Laverne as Eros/antithesis)--produces a certain aesthetic tension which leads to a pleasing but not sentimental synthesis, which Blake might have termed the marriage of opposites: Heaven and Hell.

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 13:24:40 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, Never far from you guys

    Gina : Consider me reached.Never far from the board. I would be honored to have my rendition posted.My Caves is the absolute favorite of my kids out of all my Dan covers.I have to get you my Lunch With Gina which has become one of my more evolved efforts and needless to say, your namesake.

    I wanted to mention that I noted the recent postings about a relationship between Samba and the Dan.Stevee Dan has mentioned over the years that my covers lend a Bossa Nova feel to these songs. While I resisted this characterization initially I have to cop to the fact that subjecting the Dan to the kind of "filtration" I have to do in order to play this stuff solo-acoustically has that effect, especially on the up tempo stuff.Reading the discussions about Samba and the Dan I accept that my rythmic articulations give it this quality.

    I have really enjoyed the recent discussions about counting the odd meter .It may be annoying to the non musicians here but for the people who care about this stuff it is very stimulating and sharpens the listening ear.I appreciate the skills and knowlege of people on this board and their dedication to assist the less schooled to understand these distinctions.

    What is so special about this music is that every record ( except for maybe EMG) challenges the ear either rhythmically or harmonically or both.There's always some snippit that takes some work to get and when you do , becomes your favorite part of the song.2VN had lots of them and made me think , These guys are really friggin' back !

    Hope Fagen goes deep...

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 11:38:48 ET
    Posted by: correction,

    "compound 4/4 + 2/4"

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 11:09:46 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Howard: The beauty of the compound 4/4 + 2/2 is that when I extend the counting of

    one-two-three-four one-two

    with GREATER EMPHASIS on the final "one-two" ...into the body of the song and past the intro, I notice that the final "one-two" of the "measure" coincides with EVERY SINGLE handclap! Wow! This is cool. It makes Sense. That means in the

    one-two-three-four one-two

    "Bad news breaking"

    one-two-three-four one-two

    In Eighteen A

    That the final "one-two" thus is in the SPACE between the lyrics. This is f**ing beautiful!!

    It *feels*soooo right. A compound 6/4, but not a duple (there ISN'T UNIVERSAL agreement - only the usual)?? OR You could argue just a combination of 4/4 + 2/4 repeated over and over - Johnny Ray mentioned this first. 4/4 followed by 2/4 gives it that Uneven Feel - a Latin samba kinda thingy.

    I don't understand how that can be morphed into 3/4. I can get 3 beats per measure ONLY if those notes are half-notes making it 3/2 as YGK was suggesting. Then it just doesn't MOVE like the song does...I can see the TECHNICAL argument for 3/2 (but NOT 3/4) but it just doesn't FEEL right...Again, this is art, not science - to quote Bruce Lee "Do not think! Feeeeeeeeelll."

    if Walter & Donald broke the "rule" then outstanding! I mean Chrysler advocates "cheating" for readability. 3/4 doesn't FEEL that much better than 3/2 - in fact it feels like "half a measure" which one could argue it is. 3/2 but the song moves like 4/4 + 2/4... Who's to say what's right or wrong?

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 08:50:28 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Mu - OK, so you hear a 4+2 pattern (as others have done). Just to be clear - the count of 4 is over "bad news breaking" (one count per syllable), then 2 more, and so on?

    That means each bar is divided into three (2+2+2), with a slighter stronger emphasis towards 4+2 i.e. (2+2)+2.

    This is sounding a lot like 3/4 to me...!


    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 01:33:10 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    re: josey

    yeah the rhodes makes it....those mu-suspended chords ....feldman was a vibes dude too....josey is one of those eponymous Dan cuts: like a new form of music, and also with the lyrical enigmas and ironies....sort of phunk-jazz but also with rock energy ...professional for sure.. if a bit mysterious....

    Date: Sun, November 13, 2005, 00:59:34 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Holy Jesus, Dan, never had the pleasure of meeting the late Victor Feldman, the secret ingredient in EVERY SINGLE Steely Dan 70s album but, as luck and would have it, I am fortunate to be an aquaintance of his son, Jake, a dear dear man, wonderful musician, a natural musician, you could hand him a rock and a spoon and he'd make beautiful music. Some people are just blessed with this affliction. He played piano for me and Stevee a few weeks back, a shattering take on I Got The News which his Dad spun so brilliantly on Aja and then we sang, bear with me:

    "Buhaaat -
    Vehrry well,
    I believe I know you -
    Very well.
    Wish that you knew me too
    Very well
    And I think I can deal with everything going through your head."

    Victor Feldman was a giant factor in Steely Dan's success, a gifted and generous man who lifted everyone up, dazzling musician, friend and teacher to scores of people in LA, don't get me started, every time I'm at some function or reception and I see a vibe player, I always have to go up at break, yes cause I'm an idiot for this shit, and ask him if he's ever heard of VF and this one guy said to me back in March, "he gave me the most important lessons I ever took from anyone." This guy is in a little lounge band here in LA, he looked about 60, called, "The Martini Kings," I was stunned when he said it and he went on to tell me how awesome VF was as a teacher, the way he looked at music structure and he said, I'll never forget it, "Vic told me: it's not what's on the chart, play what's NOT on the chart."

    Very well,
    Oh so very well.

    Recovering Rajah

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 23:33:01 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    Josie's a great song. While they do a great job on it live despite having to change the key a bit, the big kicker for me on the studio version: Victor Feldman on Rhodes. Oh man, I love what he did with this song. The way he drives home the rhythm guitar line in the stanzas, then takes a great lead in the chorus, simply awesome. Though the damned synthesized strings get in the way a bit in the second and third choruses...

    And as far as Josie vs. Peg.... Josie for me. Peg's a great tune (that Marotta/Rainey interplay gives me shivers and the lyrics however are simply gold), but it just doesn't stack up to Josie. Never did like the Michael McDonald backup vocals in Peg.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 22:59:07 ET
    Posted by: Rob,

    I have heard a lot of Broadway Steve on the radio Station for Steely Dan fan performers, one of the internet radio stations that are listed on another page of this site. Maybe it's already up there for you to get acccess to. The link to the link to the link to the station is above.


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 16:54:43 ET
    Posted by: C,


    Ann - Temp average 28 degrees C all year!? Oh man, the darker and colder it gets here in Scandinavia, the deeper I dig into my antidepressants box.

    I am sending a snowball your way when it's time for the Chinese new year.


    I am sick and tired of Josie, never liked that song.

    Peg, yes, Marotta and Rainey, check the Making of Aja video. That's where the words "hair" and "hi-hat" was heard in the same sentence for the very first time.


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 16:44:12 ET
    Posted by: Gina, Sun Mountain

    Sorry to post this here, but i don't know any other way to reach BwaySteve, since i have this question for him, if i can have his permission to put an mp3 online of his great Steely Knives Caves rendition? .... my e-addy is attached to this post, thanx.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 14:22:05 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    And yes, I am aware of the irony of using a rantlike I just did to prove I don't rant about the weather.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 14:16:18 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    (completely un-music related up till the last few sentances)
    Being British, I'm supposed to rant on about the weather a lot-but I don't!
    Even if rain was so bad as most people make out, it doesn't rain nearly as much in Britian as it does in some places.
    I'm not to sure that half the population knows what a monsoon is, because THATS rainy weather for you.
    Besides, I love rain, rains great. really calms the mind.
    'We walk between the raindrops back to your door...'
    See, great minds think alike.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 14:08:51 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Clas: my bit of Borneo is about 500kms north of the Equator. Temp average 28 degrees C all year. Usually humid,damp to very wet except except Feb when warm, dry winds usually kick-in in time for Chinese New Year. Interesting how we Europeans always resort to talking about the weather!!!!

    Any more news about an '06 tour?? I'm saving my pennies and hoping the impossible may happen and a tour would hit Singapore....dream on!!!

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 13:48:14 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    I'll take Josie, though Peg is very good. Josie seems to swing more, I like the horns alot.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 13:07:12 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    I meant: 4/4 + 2/4

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 13:02:34 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    OK, obsessing over 2vN in the car again.

    Once the big Carlock snare and bass starts, counting becomes, more problematic at least for my small mind. So I went back to the beginning, but instead of thinking as a conductor, I thought about a dance instructor or dancing with a partner and counting.

    Forget the half-beats, the way I'm counting is about 130 bpm with the seems to be a 4-2-4-2-4-2... 4/4 + 2/2

    I hear 10 "measures" of One-Two-Three-Four One-Two

    That's how I imagine the dance: four steps, a hip twist, and repeat...

    Fagen's Rhodes (2 descending chords) becomes the ballast. Every odd measure: Third, Fifth, Seventh, Ninth. After the tenth, the BIG drums and bass commence...

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 13:02:00 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Peg vs. Josie? Eh, I'll take Josie. She's......dirtier.

    Peg is so majory-with the McDonald R n B thang goin'...not bad...but like some Hendrixy meets Stravinsky minor of their game...well..caves of atlamira or charlemagne.. maybe better musically, but rhythmically, Josie and Peg way dread

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:57:20 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Just wanted to tip my hat to the man - Steve Gadd, who pretty much is the reason "Aja" why is one of my favourite Dan tunes.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:55:59 ET
    Posted by: Piglet,

    Groove- Peg = Marotta & Rainey = Surpass Josie

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:50:13 ET
    Posted by: h w t, hotel perdido

    Josey was Rainey and Purdie. cool.

    As far as groove the Dan has yet to surpass that sound--

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:47:45 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Thanks for the answers. I recently bought the re-issues of "Aja" and "Gaucho" and most of them didn't mention Becker on them. Also, sorry for all of the posts, this is my first time on here and got nervous when I didn't see my question.

    I do have another question haha. Who or what is "Aja"? A girl they knew or made up? obviously there was a theme wiath the woman on the cover and all.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:44:53 ET
    Posted by: Clas,


    Who did the bass on Josey?

    Da man himself – Chuck Rainey.


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:36:22 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    who did the bass on josey? that was the goods, as far as the phat-phunk sound went. (jackson?) ..I will amend, however, to some degree and say I agree with the vato who said Becker-bass was preferable. there's like, as most would agree, S. Dan pre-aja and S. Dan post-Aja. I prefer the pre- Aja (the Royal Scam about the best damn rock album evah) , and the beats then were not so phunky, and the bass a bit str8'er; tho harmonically as rich and jazzy usually

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:11:34 ET
    Posted by: Clas, Red Cross


    "What are they doing with his bass sound..." That's Barney's bass sound I am talking about. Not Rainey's.

    But anyone with a brain do understand that, right?


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 12:08:34 ET
    Posted by: Clas, The Southern Cross


    re Barney - aint my favourite either. And as Chuck Rainey so astutedly pointed out; what are they doing with his bass sound on the concerts?

    Barney's bass is like a fat pad over, under and above the rest of the instruments.


    Ann – sitting not near anything that can be described as an Atlas, I have to ask – are your adopted homecountry above or under the ekvatorial line? It's above, right? And what does winter bring on your latitudes? A lots of rain?


    To the one who asked about the meaning with "Time out of Mind" – it's about chasing the dragon = smoking the opium.


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 11:42:20 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    YGK: That's the duple, right? 6/4

    J: Walter plays some fabulous solo guitar on the Aja title track, Home at Last, I Got the News, Josie, Hey 19, Gaucho title track. Fagen does quite a bit of synthesizer and Rhodes work. But with crack session folks like Chuck Rainey, Larry Carlton, Michael Omartian etc. why?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 11:26:42 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Oh man--'cuz they had some scratch then and could farm the sheet out to some competent homies, while the two Meisterminds relaxed in the back of the house of tracks with some hoochies, beaucoup courvosier, and a lil' somethin'-- somethin, peruvian- style ...feel me?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 11:01:50 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Hello, got a question. Why is it that Walter and Donald don't play much on "Aja" and "Gaucho"?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 11:00:03 ET
    Posted by: J. , Miller Ville

    Hello, got a question. Why is it that Walter and Donald don't play much on "Aja" and "Gaucho"?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 10:58:26 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Hello, got a question. Why is it that Walter and Donald don't play as much on the "Aja" and "Gaucho" albums?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 10:57:51 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Hello, got a question. Why is it that Walter and Donald don't play as much on the "Aja" and "Gaucho" albums?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 10:57:23 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Hello, got a question. Why is it that Walter and Donald don't play as much on the "Aja" and "Gaucho" albums?

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 10:55:33 ET
    Posted by: J., Miller Ville

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 10:50:06 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Howard: "if you doubled the bar length from what I wrote in my snippet, and wrote it in 6/4 that's the only way I could imagine it working."


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 09:59:48 ET
    Posted by: Chrys, meter jungle machete

    A slow 6/4 or 6/8 would completely dissipate the feeling of those meters. Sorry, can't hear it. I think we should apply Occam's razor to the mensuration (no, that's not a gynecological imperative, you wags).

    If anyone can provide authoritative validation for a NON-compound 6/4 or 6/8, i.e., straight, steady sixes, I'd greatly appreciate it. As far as I know, there ain't no such animal.

    Rajah: Get well soon, jive turkey.

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 08:19:37 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, woke up to drink water

    Howard, you're our rock, Maestro.

    back to bed,
    Baba Zithromax Rajah

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 04:15:22 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    hwt - sure, there are many more unusual or strange time signatures than 3/4 and 4/4 - but that's a separate discussion from what's actually used in 2VN.

    Also, your comment about the first beat in the 3/4 example not being stressed applies in exactly the same way to the 6/8 example. The start of beat 1 in both cases is identical!

    YGK - if you doubled the bar length from what I wrote in my snippet, and wrote it in 6/4 that's the only way I could imagine it working. The basic beats and sub-divisions would still work, as you'd get three main stresses for each "bad news breaking" length (my original bar length).

    BUT - I still don't think this is right. Perceptions of where the bar divisions are is subtle, but to my ears (and apparently to others) the natural division is as I wrote it in the transcription snippets - which to me means it must be 3/4.


    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 00:22:43 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    SoH: I wish i could have seen THAT.

    Ben also was a drummer in the Nasvhille studio circuit

    Jack: heroin or a palantir in Middle Earth

    Date: Sat, November 12, 2005, 00:09:44 ET
    Posted by: jackOSpeed, Crestline, CA

    Okay...after decades of listening to the Dan, I'm convinced that "Time Out Of Mind is there greatest song....
    Ah, but the meaning...drugs or a church revival? You're call.

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 22:17:59 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Brrr....

    Caught Ben Folds last eve in Bethesda, backed by the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra...F*cking amazing show...Kinda funny watching the folks in the audience who were obviously season-ticket holders at the venue trying to figure this show out...The BSO is featured on a very regular basis and surely these well-dressed and well-heeled patrons figured Ben Folds to be some sort of undiscovered piano vituoso...SURPRISE!...F-bombs and sing-alongs galore made the people-watching almost as great as the show...The only drawback to a concert like this one is that the songs he played last night will NEVER sound quite the same again without the 75-piece backing band...


    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 19:54:59 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Barney? Barney, like, f-n A see
    'em up there, a massive heap of smiling purple, his tail
    laying down that oh-so-phunkified groove, his dinosaur shoes, his Dinah Shore shoes! or claws, talons as it were--but kinder-gentler talons--get down wit yr badself to dat righteous soul brotha, Barney...

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 18:32:46 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Can't say I'm a big Barney fan, he has that job cause he colors strickly within the lines of what Don & Walt require. Walter tells us that the funk comes up from the earth's core into Barney's axe but he's steady and all as a rock but, frankly, I like Walter better on the bottom.

    Speakin a which, I've watched the Cream DVD from RAH now, very safe playing as you noted at Madison Square, ygk, and Jack Bruce made Ginger seem less cadaverous but he played some great licks. This indeed was Ginger and Jack's band. Clapton, on the other hand, disappointed a bit, maybe the aura has outstripped the man but that ever-present Fender guitar really aggrivates me at this point. Where was the Gibson Les Paul and what, he forgot to pack a wow-wow pedal? Seems Clapton's the pig-headed one now. But so great on Deserted Cities, Sittin on Top, Presssed Rat & Warthog, my Presciousss...with Ginger croaking out that inanity which I suppose in his drug-induced period made sense, loved it, the the highlight though, NSU:

    "Driving in my car, smoking my cigar,
    The only time I'm happy's when I play my guitar.

    Sailing in my yacht, what a lot I got,
    Happiness is something that just cannot be bought."

    Now there's a novel notion.

    Born Under a Bad Sign, marvelous cause Clapton starts the song out really playing the bass line on than infernal Fender while Jack plays off those double 3s as someone so astutely pointed out here a few days back and as the song progresses, modulations brilliantly signal EC up to true lead, all of a sudden he seems to have that great old grip of his on where to take it. Maybe a muscle memory thing but when you start out playing 24, 48 bars of bassline, you have real good idea of where you're going, you're encoded. But when he has to blow from the very first bar on the big hits, Sunshine, Crossroads, gotta tell ya, very disappointing, White Room with no wow-wow, and a very sterile Badge -- he ain't got it.

    Jack is so old and fragile he has to sit a lot, Ginger's throne has a back to it. It's like going into an old man's bar: the barstools always have back support.

    But worth the $20, oh yeah.

    Back to 2vN, Howard, thank you as ever for your guidance, I'm analyzing your two charts with this razor sharp mind of mine...geez, wish I had that ability, still takes me forever, now where are my antibiotics...

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 17:01:27 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, Forty Deuce

    Perusing the magazine store selling every Mag in creation. Bassplayer has a special issue with "lessons" from top players.
    I will paraphrase the very short Barney piece .

    1.Plays with both pickups full on
    2.He gets tonal variation by picking at the different pickup locations.
    3.Uses roundwound Medium strings .
    4.Because he uses heavier strings, he employs a heavier technique,causing him to break a lot of strings.
    5.To deal with the problem of string breakage he grinds down the sharp bridge points.
    Nothing on technique, the material or how he feels about playing un-funky for Dan.
    Not an in-depth piece that would cause me to actually buy the magazine.Grainy and out of focus picture at a terrible angle accompanies article.

    end of tangent

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 16:33:02 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    no shit. that's what i said about 4 days ago. it's the quick 6. and the phrasing--piano, bass, vocals all falls around 6 beats to bar. there are other people around who can read drum charts-- and bass/treble clef as well

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:58:06 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    it's simply this:

    You can either count a slow 3 - or a quick six.....

    it's either........

    Juaaaaaaan, toooooooooo, threeeeeeeeeee
    One two three four five six......

    trust me.........



    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:49:55 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    sure, ok, but unless you're houdini, you can't count what isn't there.....

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:35:52 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,


    [no religious slur intended]

    I count 7, two extra notes slipped into a Pentatonic, African/Eastern ju-ju.

    Shit is deep.

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:13:41 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    not about writing it just saying that 3/4 is dull; odd meters preferable

    i did my music theory course years ago...but someone like stravinsky (or a stravinsky imitator such as zappa ) rarely would write a piece all in 3/4 or 4/4...more like 3/8...then 11/ 4/ 5/8 etc/

    And fagen did say it was in 6/4

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:08:19 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    oh sure that's right, hwt.....write it out.....

    uh huh

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 14:02:18 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    its still hard to hear it as a fast waltz... le valse
    3/4's for squares man. 6/8 is not much better, but a bit more juju-esque (which it is). better 7/8 alternating with 5/8, with a few sections of 2/8

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 13:31:18 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Music provides an infinite microcosm of nuance, a tiny shift in perception who said dat, jus talkin bout Shaft.

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 13:14:50 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Thank you Howard....

    now would you say that a 3/4 could also be 'felt' the same as a 6/4 depending on the author?


    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 12:59:30 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    the 2nd notation looks ok--in 3/4 it seems strange that the first beat of each measure is hardly ever stressed. Does the "an/y" 16ths of first line start on last 1/8th or on last 1/16? I hear /thing and then /goes as two 1/8s in second bar. whatever.

    muy bien. I'll take another look at it. Piano riff looks pretty close

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 09:02:20 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Have a look at:

    I've transcribed the same snippet (first bit of the verse) in 3/4 and 6/8. To me, the 3/4 example makes perfect sense. Do the 6/8 crowd think the 6/8 example looks/sounds right?

    Mu - if you're listening to the piano part, you'll notice that in 3/4 the two triads (most strongly accented parts) both fall on strong beats of 3/4. In 6/8, the first one is on a weak beat.

    Also - Carlock's ride cymbal is the clearest part of what he plays, and that sounds to me like accents generally fall on 3 beats within the bar (3/4), not 2 (6/8).

    A simplified version of the ride part would be something like:

    dotted-8th 16th dotted-8th 16th dotted-8th 16th
    (with a few straight 8th 8th pairs and the odd rest mixed in as well). To me, that says 3/4!


    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 04:15:40 ET
    Posted by: SS, HK

    I'm with Steve....caught myself many times yesterday tapping out 2VN.

    3/4...okay I can hear (tap) act, I can get behind that.

    Date: Fri, November 11, 2005, 03:34:47 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, rat -a- tat

    Spent an hour that I really couldn't spare today catching up on postings, tapping my foot, banging a chopstick on a vase, humming.
    I can't imagine life without syncopation.

    Love you geniuses...

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 22:47:15 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    Just had to listen to 2VN in 5.1 surround today. Oh do I ever love DVD-Audio format. The instrument separation absolutely takes this song to a new level. It totally redefines the percussion to a point where you have this groove that just won't quit circling your head. Good times.

    I dig the rhythym and feel. This song really makes me think "jazz" more than pretty much any other Dan track. Those horns...too sweet. That percussion...Keith Carlock just tears it up, love how loud he gets at times in the chorus, especially on the hi-hat. The vocals are almost percussive even. And I love that electric piano action! Once you get into the groove, this song almost feels too short.

    West of Hollywood is a great song (lovely keyboards especially), but in my opinion Potter's solo in the outro is a bit much. It certainly generates a bit of awe from me whenever I listen to it, but after awhile, it just starts to get old. It's not even necessarily Potter's playing--it's the whole arrangement in that area. It doesn't help that I really don't like the drumming at all in this song. Sonny Emory plays it a bit too straight at times and his snare seems to lack enough punch to really drive the backbeat.

    Doc Mu - good call on the EMG outro. Weiskopf just sounds so soulful and relaxed there. He never tries to overplay it and tries to just fit in with that great groove.

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 21:40:06 ET
    Posted by: Josey, Birmingham

    Two entirely different styles of drumming (Vinnie and Antonio), but certainly two who have more going on than so many others.

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 21:37:09 ET
    Posted by: Josey, Birmingham

    Alright, somebody's trying to sing to me with that last post!

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 21:36:07 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    YGK: That's the thing I dig about the album in general - the keys are really used well rhtymically and thos sool jazz horns - it feels closer to The Masters than say Aja. I really dig West of Hollywood and am ver impressed with Potter. Love his two sax solos on Janie. Have to say I'm more in awe than in love with the outtro solo on WoH. I've even checked the time once or twice until the signature Wurly riffs at the very end. In contrast, I probably am more in Love than in Awe of Weiskopfs outtro solo on the way underrated EMG title track. It's chock full of grinding soul. I wish the song was about a minute LONGER.

    jeeeeez Malc, now I'm really flip-flopping - if you use the conductor method it's a one TWO two TWO three TWO four TWO

    that car was vibrating near resonance, I'll tell ya that...

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 21:14:36 ET
    Posted by: My Cousin Vinnie,

    KC brings energy and some much needed youth, Donald said, "he handles everything we throw at him," no mean feat with Mistra Steely Dan but no one in their right mind would compare him favorably to Colaiuta, course not, and certainly not yet anyway, maybe never. So that's not cynicism, that's just a valid critical view. Now, Antonio Sanchez, he's right there with Vinnie.

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 19:40:18 ET
    Posted by: h o b o w i r e t o a s t e r, GloomMart

    warning: cynicism follows

    While I find 2vn interesting and superior to 90% of what passes for music these days, it's a bit of a let down. The 6/8 rhythm is too monotonous , as with much Dan (and really with too much jazz). (It sounds like a Sting riff and one just doesn't purchase Sting product). The piano works as does the sax and the brass at the end is a nice touch; but overall it sounds like "hey man, lets do some african juju thing." And Kid,, busy. Carlock's a GrooveMeister ja, but his cymbal work is all over the place. The Coliuata-ex zappa paisa is a better stixster really.

    West of Hollywood--that is a quite successful piece of groove-jazz--reminds one a bit of the best of Aja--like the title cut. Yet as with Aja the new stuff lacks the earlier cyberpunk vibe, of like Royal Scam or Pretzel Logic: some of the best Dan music ever played was the instrumental phase-fade at the end of haitian divorce--Dean Parks?--they should re-do that--add a bunch more chromatic dissonant harmonies, and tweak with some odd meter here and there. Green Book sort of goes in that direction--a kind of rock-mambo-jazz--yet seems a sketch rather than finished and ready to consume...........if you listen attentively, you may note that Debussy was envisioning the Dan in a few choruses of La Mer or his Nocturnes

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 18:53:25 ET
    Posted by: Rajah on the Mend,

    I didn't say I was goin anywhere, who'd have me anyway, the Blue Oyster Cult Guestbook?

    Very amusing Googling, Hoopsie, many of those were quite insightful.

    OK, how about the lyrical structure of TvN and does it in any way inform us about this very dense and twisty tune? I count 48 bars of just Donald's staccato crooning goin on, and I think the bars of the verses do not end when Donald gives that little repose between, "Breaking news - [beat] - in 18A." My reading is that's one whole bar, not two. If it were two, that would stretch the verses by 6 bars each go-round to 14 bars each. My medication is making me feverish now. But you could choose to read it that way, lots of room for interpreting or just looking at a song, but the old Prof used to say, "as long as it makes sense, mathematical sense really.

    But for me an 8 bar verse, a 4 bar chorus, and 8 bar verse, a 4 bar chorus, an 8 bar verse and then, wait a sec, now here comes an 8 bar chorus and finally and very unusually, an 8 bar verse at the end of the vocalist's presentation. Whew...

    Swirling all around and in and out of that whole deal is this fascinating rhythm track and dare I offer, do I hear like a Pentatonic scale, five chords being pounded out on piano between, "breaking news - ah -1-2-3-4-5 -in 18A" then another pentatonic pass at the end of, "Missy's Kitty turned inside out they say" ah-1-2-3-4-5 goes the piano. Or are these just voices in my head? This song to me is a perpetuum mobile, i.e., continuous reps of a musical pattern at quick tempo all through the song?

    Of course I guess if you were conducting the song, you'd be framing it it a big ole sweep and let the players mess round.

    The lyric of this song has, excuse me, the big balls, they wanted to wow us and they did. The lyric has all the swagger and bravado of my favorite new Notorious B I G's latest, Ten Crack Commandments.

    Took a while to cozy up to this song if you're just an old Tin Pan Alley fan like me but eventually, it hooks you, makes the head spin.

    The medication I'm on says Z-Pak, it's knockin me waaay back.

    Hit it Biggie, I'm down for a nap...

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 17:29:17 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Somewhere someone said 6/8 is compound and thus has to have dotted notes--and it does; two dotted 1/4 notes. In 6/8 2 dotted quarter notes would fall on 1st and 4th beats-- equaling a total of 6 1/8 notes. (a dotted quarter note = 1/4 + 1/8)

    the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is mostly a matter of feel and accenting rather than note quality. The stresses are at the beginning of each 6/8 bar--not 1 and 4; and the notes are not drawn out as if they were 1/4 notes: uptempo 1/8s, with a few 1/16ths. IF it is notated in 3/4 then it is very high tempo. And like most sambas, the pulse is regular, not at all like "ONE two three/ONE two three" waltz or polka; it's 1 & 2 & 3 & 4& 5& 6 & /1 & 2 & etc.; with the 1/16ths sometimes filling in the "&"

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 17:07:06 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    I will listen for you, ph - why not crank it up on 43rd between 8/9 sometime?

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 16:38:54 ET
    Posted by: ph, I can't hear my heartbeat

    Mu, how loud is REALLY LOUD? My car does 90dB. I have got to be the only teenager in this world who rattles windows using Steely Dan.
    "Do I hear 'Hey Nineteen' coming down the street?" "Must be Paul."

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 16:10:14 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    M'ore: HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWL - yes! yes! yes! When you said Miles Davis Horns - I flipped.

    The day 2vN came out, my buddy was test driving a car, so we spent a few hours listening to it in his car - cranked all the way up. And we both mentioned the horns and Davis, etc. Leonhart did a fabulous arrangment, eh?
    The piano? Stravinsky stabs.......

    [Mastercard moment: "The chiba-chiba from the 800 service? $200. The new Chrysler with the surround sound stereo system? $30,000. Listening to Steely Dan's new record before anyone else? Priceless."]

    I will re-state - polyrhythms, piano parts, etc. do NOT help define the meter, and don't play an important part of the analysis. These are syncopations, colors, flavors, which play off the meter, but do not define it.

    i.e. a Conductor would not worry about syncopations, colors, etc. He is - initially - to define the meter for the orchestra/group.

    If you conduct 2vN, so much becomes clearer....


    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 15:44:26 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Howard, YGK: Good questions. I listened to TvN REALLY LOUD in the car this morning. The polyrhythms from drums, handclaps + drum machine, bass have ya thinking ONE two TWO two THREE two.

    but listening to Carlock + the piano has me thinking ONE two three TWO two three @ about 120 Hz for each

    I'm hearing one bar as the shorter segment - a duple overall making it 6/4?? I think if I'm understanding this nomenclature correctly (and I may not be)

    It's clever stuff - love those Miles Davis horns + "Trane-like sax in the outtro.

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 10:40:07 ET
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    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 10:16:16 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Howard: for the record, I'm with you on the
    ONE two TWO two THREE two

    Not sure if I will make Rikki, but anyone in town, that night, let me know (in advance) and we'll hang........


    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 09:28:24 ET
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    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 08:01:43 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Chrysler - the more subtle debate of 3/4 vs 3/2 (or equivalent compound variants) would be nice to get to, but we're struggling to get past the more basic simple time vs compound time... but appreciate your comments!

    Johnny Ray - if you're hearing 2VN as divided 4+2, then it cannot be in 6/4. In 6/4, the 6 beats can only be divided into two groups of threes (3+3) - or further subdivisions of this 3+3 idea.

    3/4 (or 3/2) on the other hand is divided 2+2+2 - hence (2+2)+2 gives you the 4+2 division you hear.

    Mu, hwt - still interested in your thoughts on my two questions. How are the 6 beats subdivided? 2+2+2, i.e. "ONE-two TWO-two THREE-two", or 3+3, i.e. "ONE-two-three TWO-two-three"? It's only by answering this that we can decide this.

    Also, what do you count as "a bar"? The phrase "bad news breaking", or the longer chunk "bad news breaking in eighteen A"?


    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 06:25:44 ET
    Posted by: ps, ...

    "First we take Manhattan...."

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 06:20:57 ET
    Posted by: Gina, Coolsville Mountain

    Hey SOH, you and me both, it's a long way to Tribeca from where I am :-)
    But luckily enough, I had mine sent to ms Nigey Lennon who will do the honors and enjoy the concert a little bit on my behalf as well... Rickie Lee Jones is always powerful, whether with an acoustic ensemble, or a full wired band of musicians. Whoever will be the lucky one to get SOH's tickets (BWaySteve, YGK?), have a great time and don't forget to drop us a line about it , whether in Blue, Yellow etc etc


    ps, that Mistah Dan stuff is way nice :-)

    Date: Thurs, November 10, 2005, 03:16:16 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, wimp-out

    Looks like Howard is the real stickler for accuracy, not me. I'd thought I would wrap up the meter discussion by being Mr. Nice Guy, because everyone else's contributions on the subject were so cool, albeit highly erroneous.

    Look--the meter in "2vN" CANNOT be 6/4, 6/8, or any other such COMPOUND creature. Compound meter is defined BY UNIVERSAL MODERN CONSENSUS as having beats--pulses, if you will--that are DOTTED NOTE VALUES. You just DO NOT hear dotted note values, divisible by three, as the beat/pulse in "2vN."

    Howard's take--ONEtwoTWOtwoTHREEtwo--is the ONLY valid interpretation here, due to the NOTATIONAL necessity of putting the damn thing into a UNIVERSALLY-AGREED-UPON valid meter.

    CAVEAT: But methinks, as I've previously stated, that the FEEL of the meter--the illusion of six strong beats--is better served by a 3/2 time signature rather than 3/4. Why? Because in 3/2 you have six relatively STRONG divisions, i.e., quarter notes, as opposed to the six relatively WEAK eighth note divisions of 3/4.

    So why is "2vN" given a 3/4 time signature, rather than 3/2, in the sheet music? This was done, by a very common notational convention, for both readability and aesthetic reasons; the longer note values in 3/2 would look odd, and clumsy to read.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 22:17:25 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    "When Walter Becker and Donald Fagen reformed after their long hiatus, Gibson was listening to see if Mistah Dan would show up again in the studio; and indeed, there he was...."

    Yes. Mr. Gibson understands what the Dan was about: not just some cocktail lounge backdrop muzak, but the cyberpunk spectacle. If only Pixeleen--sort of a Gibsonesque anime-manga flick in brief-- had been a bit less schweet, and a bit more more weird.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 19:35:50 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Cringing...

    Hello all...

    As I cannot shuffle my currently ridiculous schedule to accomodate my musical needs these days, I offer these up to my friends here on the Blue:

    2 advance admission vouchers to the Rickie Lee Jones show at BMCC Tribeca Performing Arts Center (199 Chambers Street, NYC)...The show is on 11/19...These vouchers must be exchanged for official tickets at the venue box office on the evening of the show between 7 PM and 8:15 PM...While this is actually a "free" show, these vouchers guarantee admission when exchaged for actual show tickets...

    First email gets 'em...


    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 16:29:43 ET
    Posted by: ph, spending the week in a state of nonexistance's results for my name:
    "Warning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in /usr/dbs_share/www/shared/include/ on line 41"

    I think that means I'm nowhere to be found on the web. :D

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 15:55:09 ET
    Posted by: Lewis Fairlawn, Cyberspace


    "A great band is always much more than the sum of its parts, which is why supergroups cobbled together from individual all-star musicians are rarely that super. The greatest bands are formed when individual spiritual forces mysteriously coalesce to birth an entirely new collective personality (Band with a capital B). Author William Gibson even has a name for the particular personality that is Steely Dan’s Band: 'Mistah Dan.' When Walter Becker and Donald Fagen reformed after their long hiatus, Gibson was listening to see if Mistah Dan would show up again in the studio; and indeed, there he was...."

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 15:48:53 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Type what? All that? No. Actually, it's just "cut and paste" and post. About a minute or two total, which is how I found time to post.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 15:16:34 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Hoops, you have some serious spare typing time on your hands!
    All this points to a very focused, dedicated office worker... (if you're notan office worker, oops!)

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 15:05:46 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Great news, Matt! THANKS!

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 14:37:42 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    I was reminded of a site called "" It's pretty hilarious at times. The site's claim to fame is that it will tell you what people are saying about you or anyone else by searching Google for entries for people, places or things. It is not affiliated with Google. You can search it yourself, but I listed below what turned up...I noticed at least one of my writings below in the Steely Dan search--funny!

    Googlism for: steely dan

    steely dan is in tpw
    steely dan is a pseudonym for the songwriting team of walter
    steely dan is still rocking
    steely dan is back
    steely dan is a pseudonym for the songwriting team of walter becker
    steely dan is a combination of rock
    steely dan is eager to rock us our
    steely dan is trying just as hard as any random country/disco/metal band to capture our attention
    steely dan is an la rock band that is headed by a pair of transplanted gotham
    steely dan is vocalist/pianist donald fagen
    steely dan is natural way to go
    steely dan is famed for its excellent backing musos and they sure put on a terrific show with the likes of cornelius bumpus
    steely dan is that their music is difficult to quantify
    steely dan is really the alter persona of walter becker and donald fagan
    steely dan is still rocking after a 20
    steely dan is much richer and more jazz
    steely dan is the exact opposite of
    steely dan is a
    steely dan is all
    steely dan is not a band at all
    steely dan is the name used by two jazz listening
    steely dan is the best
    steely dan is only
    steely dan is the comfort food of music to me
    steely dan is fagen and becker
    steely dan is another real winner; he is arrogant
    steely dan is so completely a law unto themselves that they could never
    steely dan is all about
    steely dan is one of the most innovative bands in popular music
    steely dan is a good place for the unitiated
    steely dan is capable of
    steely dan is once
    steely dan is a conceptual group
    steely dan is not a bloke's name
    steely dan is my favorite band; i like tons of other acts from all decades and many genres
    steely dan is force of 'nature'
    steely dan is back with two against nature
    steely dan is not your typical pop band
    steely dan is that they actually achieved great popularity
    steely dan is legendary for great recordings
    steely dan is walter becker and donald fagen
    steely dan is not
    steely dan is a cult band in france
    steely dan is also one of the more eclectic bands from that era
    steely dan is already part of the right
    steely dan is volstrekt uniek
    steely dan is the most deeply subversive of all pop groups because sometimes now in 1996 i'll be shopping in the supermarket and they'll be playing steely dan
    steely dan is the most deeply subversive of all pop groups because sometimes now in 1996
    steely dan is definitely one of the basic ingredients in that stew
    steely dan is back with their new album ?two against nature
    steely dan is band whose music/lyrics will stay relevant to you as you go through any period in your life
    steely dan is an acquired taste
    steely dan is timeless
    steely dan is rock's equivalent of salt and vinegar chips
    steely dan is
    steely dan is still crafting that signature sound
    steely dan is not so much a lack of ideas
    steely dan is in feite een studioband bestaande uit twee muzikanten
    steely dan is worthy of musical praise
    steely dan is that you have to be at least a certain age to appreciate them
    steely dan is releasing the first album" the tracks are
    steely dan is most definitely back
    steely dan is touring to promote their new album
    steely dan is older than most of us
    steely dan is music
    steely dan is feel good music
    steely dan is doing is somewhat tangential to the main body of what is happening in what you could call
    steely dan is just the latest in a growing list of veterans acknowledged presumably only because the grammys find an excuse to acknowledge them
    steely dan is that they have always spurred me on to discover other great musical artists
    steely dan is the
    steely dan is all about ? i think people
    steely dan is not on my radar
    steely dan is more jazz
    steely dan is not the prototypical rock band; in fact they would probably dislike even the label of a 'rock' band
    steely dan is the closest pop has come to the acid wit of wilde and coward and vidal
    steely dan is revolutionizing the way people view music
    steely dan is the definitive "band"

    Googlism for: walter becker

    walter becker is born in a hospital steps away from a popular midtown manhattan bar as war looms on the korean peninsula
    walter becker is born in new york city on february 20
    walter becker is born
    walter becker is from becker and f@gen
    walter becker is the pinnacle for some players
    walter becker is an incredible producer and i would be willing to bet he contributes well over 50% lyrically
    walter becker is producing
    walter becker is currently producing china crisis' new album in hawaii
    walter becker is a phantom member
    walter becker is the 50% of steely dan
    walter becker is a psychedelic
    walter becker is geboren in new york city op 20 februari
    walter becker is instantly recognizable
    walter becker is 51
    walter becker is born in new york
    walter becker is playing so much bass on it
    walter becker is playing on
    walter becker is wary of
    walter becker is
    walter becker is reported to have said 'i thought that was weird
    walter becker is a great addition
    walter becker is on the road again
    walter becker is a bad bass player because he isn't
    walter becker is god
    walter becker is here too
    walter becker is also jewish
    walter becker is the main man
    walter becker is back
    walter becker is very practical and optimistic and image
    walter becker is using a strat

    Googlism for: donald fagen

    donald fagen is a composer
    donald fagen is born
    donald fagen is born in passaic new jersey amidst growing furor over soviet acquisition of the atomic bomb
    donald fagen is the steel from steely dan
    donald fagen is in fine form throughout the new album's run as well
    donald fagen is the other half of music's tightest
    donald fagen is one of the funniest guys in the world to work with
    donald fagen is a musical genius
    donald fagen is previous album
    donald fagen is the singer and uses the same musicians that had recorded with them before
    donald fagen is perfecting the dirty old man look
    donald fagen is a very good song writer
    donald fagen is back
    donald fagen is a singer/keyboardist
    donald fagen is one of the premier songwriters in the history of pop and rock music
    donald fagen is having a
    donald fagen is geboren in passaic
    donald fagen is pretty good
    donald fagen is the belief that a pop song doesn't
    donald fagen is a genius
    donald fagen is excellent
    donald fagen is a fucking genius
    donald fagen is born in passaic
    donald fagen is believed to have immediately had a "global harmony" clause inserted into his hectic release schedule
    donald fagen is recording again
    donald fagen is the other half of the group
    donald fagen is due in stores feb
    donald fagen is a good writer is a gross understatement
    donald fagen is truly impressive; to think that they were able to actually expand upon the
    donald fagen is said to have been miffed after the making of this record
    donald fagen is a nearby neighbour
    donald fagen is scary
    donald fagen is one half of steely dan
    donald fagen is really looking long in the tooth

    But to put this in perspective, I also found out a few things I didn't know about myself:

    jim mckay is a performance poet
    jim mckay is offered here exclusively by designs by jennie
    jim mckay is scheduled to be there for the screenings
    jim mckay is a filmmaker
    jim mckay is a producer/director
    jim mckay is the mad scientist and veteran bro performer
    jim mckay is that he's one of those rare people today
    jim mckay is nearly the third most seen face in the film
    jim mckay is an optimist of olympian proportions
    jim mckay is standing in front of them
    jim mckay is just about the tonic the country needs right now
    jim mckay is absorbed in the lives of his three subjects
    jim mckay is ready for this?
    jim mckay is a little long in the tooth
    jim mckay is aboard as a correspondent
    jim mckay is melting
    jim mckay is something different altogether
    jim mckay is a strong and silent type
    jim mckay is ready for this? discuss this story in our discussion forum
    jim mckay is the only person to hit a golf ball over the great wall of china
    jim mckay is digitally imposed
    jim mckay is on loan
    jim mckay is 75
    jim mckay is 79
    jim mckay is born
    jim mckay is 80 now and jokes about being smaller than in his younger days
    jim mckay is 80
    jim mckay is 81
    jim mckay is 77
    jim mckay is 78
    jim mckay is

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 13:57:48 ET
    Posted by: Johnny Ray, The Washington Zoo

    My opinion is that 2vN is in 6/4, and you either count it in 6 (no subdivisions), or you divide it 4 + 2.

    This is similar to our Cairo Fred song Deja Vu (All Over Again), where the music at the verses alternates between bars of 6 and bars of 4. The bars of 6 are 4 + 2.


    or download

    Best wishes,

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 13:51:06 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Matt: You da man!!!!!!

    Raj: Cool. You ain't been holdin' out on us? I wonder which Fagen?, the Nightfly Fagen (open crystalline sound) or the Kamakiriad Fagen (More R&B rhythmic)? Both great, but I wonder if we'll be hearing stuff like Goodbye Look rather than Tomorrow's Girls if the Brazillian/Latin theme holds true?

    How: All I can say it was the 1960s, not 1860s. Art is not science - I like the newer nomenclature, but does it make it "better?" For example, while there are technological advances in instrumentation, I find it hard to demonstrate that a Yamaha DX-600 with like a 1000 voices is "better" than a Steinway grand piano! I'd find it difficult to argue that Steely Dan is "better" than Debussy! I can try, but who's to judge? However, I can say with complete confidence that in the same physician's hands that an angiogram + ECG + echocardiogram + HDL/LDL lipid profile + stethoscope Today is BETTER than a 19th Century stethoscope at determining existence of heart disease and the cause leading to the right choice of therapeutics. Art is more about impressions. Science more a process.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 13:47:51 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Hey gang,
    Got in late last night from a conference in Boston.
    Nice town, I got a chance to check out a couple of the record shops, picked up a used Freddie Hubbard’s “Straight life” and another C.D. which is a homemade with the word “Powell” hand written across it. The store allowed you to listen to anything used before your purchase, well, the “Powell” is of course Bud Powell and the very first tune was worth the $5 price. It’s Gershwin’s “nice work if you can get it” I only have three words: Oh My God.
    Incredible! It’s a simple trio of Powell, Russell on Bass and Roach on drums, the tune is at once simple and somehow complex.
    There are ten tunes on the CD from the late forties to the early fifties. What a treasure.

    I spent half of this morning shoveling through my e-mails, finally settled in and then got caught up with what’s happened on the blue.
    What’s this nonsense about Rajah leaving!? You’re input and opinion is one of the reasons that I come on the board and you want to leave?

    Mio compare, tanti auguri ad essere un nuovo Nanno. Son securo che fai la tua figlia felice e argoliosa.

    I couldn’t help but notice the 2vN time signature debate. I think it was brought on via someone asking our opinion as to the meaning of the song.
    I always thought that it was 6/4 but, some interesting views may have some valid weight.
    Anyway, I found an interview done by MOJO Magazine after the CD came out and it may shed some light on not only the time signature but the meaning behind the lyrics:


    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 11:15:20 ET
    Posted by: h w t,


    for the vocal line I hear 6 quick beats of 1/8s (staccato) for each bar...vocal phrase....and the 1/8s are being played on cymbal more or less; the piano follows vocal lines to some extent--would take more work

    bad / news/ break-/ ing / (rest) / an-y / thing / goes.......
    1 2 3 4 5 x 6 X || 1 / 2 / 3/ 4 /5 /6
    (1/16s) x x dotted

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 07:54:58 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    The fact that you can count 6 beats in each bar provides no evidence either way in the 6/8 vs 3/4 debate (or 6/4 vs 3/2). All of these can give you 6 beats per bar - the key question (as I posted before) is the grouping of beats into twos or threes, i.e:

    do you count: ONE two TWO two THREE two

    or: ONE two three TWO two three

    Mu, hwt et al - which is it? I say the first one!

    Mu - there may be old definitions of compound time that differ with the standard modern interpretation, but let's stick to the standard modern interpretation eh?!

    A related question in all of this is what unit do you hear as a bar? e.g. do you hear "Bad news breaking" as your bar unit, or do you hear "Bad news breaking in eighteen A " as your bar unit?

    For me it's the first ("Bad news breaking"), and within this bar I count ONE two TWO two THREE two.

    If everyone can give their answers to these two questions (bar length and grouping into twos or threes), we might actually get somewhere...


    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 06:51:23 ET
    Posted by: Rach, UK

    Hi ,
    Anyone know where I can get aa AJA T-shirt from in the UK???


    Rach x x

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 05:53:18 ET
    Posted by: Still Sparkin', HK

    Anyone else ever try to nail the point at which that little piano line appears in TVN ? I mean correctly place it in each measure.....took me quite a while but sure helped me understand the overall rythym better.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 04:31:26 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, PA

    Re Rhythm, meter, beats:

    Good, nay, excellent points one and all (including me, heh, heh).

    As jazz pianist/educator Mark Levine, author of THE JAZZ THEORY BOOK et al. has it, theory is just a little dance we do around the music, that's all.

    Date: Wed, November 09, 2005, 01:40:19 ET
    Posted by: Psycho Dad, Hinktown

    Matt said: "Anyone else hearing anything good?"

    Yeah! The new album!

    Holy Shit!!!!

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 23:12:14 ET
    Posted by: rajah in the sick room, feelin weak

    This track, this TvN, is elusive, a samba yes, maybe even the "songo" beat in the first twenty seconds but 5 years down the road and it still's a mystery.

    I know a few people who have heard the new Donald tracks...nothing of a spectacular change in approach is what I hear, same old Donald...just fucking brilliant, that's all.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 21:17:31 ET
    Posted by: Josey, Birmingham

    Just in case there's any life left in this horse - it sounds like a samba to me right out of the gate. Again, I'm basing that solely on bass drum and hi-hat. Need to listen to this one again as it has been a few months since the last time I heard it - so, going on memory, but, like everyone else here, I've heard it at least 150 times.

    Matt - thanks for giving us something to hang on to other than time signatures - which I can discuss anytime, but I'm sure it's not much of an interesting read to the bulk of the crowd.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 19:46:22 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    yess josey that sounds about raht; after the first few bars of jazzin' round, it becomes a samba...Sambo?...but the samba..6/8... is mightily tweaked with percussion accents (the claps) on offbeat 1/8s or dotted triplets'; carlock's ride cymbal is tricky, but mostly 1/8ths--maybe a bit busy: then sort of off beat fills behind it....cyber-samba. Fagen's dissonant piano riffs are pretty cool. Actually after listening to it few times I have more respect for it, and apologies if I have analyzed it to muerto. BTW there are sambas in other meters than 6/8: like 5/4. If you can handle some of the elevator-y harmonies listen to some old Jobim, or Getz does Jobim: quite subtle rhythms and accents with lots of chromaticism--Fagen probably gets ideas from that;

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 19:02:14 ET
    Posted by: ph,

    Matt, I believe that I speak for all of us bluebook-ers when I say that, WE LOVE YOU!!!!

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 18:33:13 ET
    Posted by: Matt, Chattanooga, TN

    Talked to my friendly Warner rep today and he said that at the last meeting he had with the label guys, they played two songs from the forthcoming Donald release, and they got a big reaction from the assembled throngs of, well, music sales reps. He said that listening to them there, he felt like Donald hadbn't missed a beat from the newer SD and even his old albums. That's not to say that the ear of the discerning danfan will not hear subtle nuances that will appear to be spun from new cloth, but that one dude thought it sounded "as good as Steely Dan".

    Of course, said rep didn't have a solid date for the album, having been told "maybe january, maybe later". Anyone else hearing anything good?


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 18:32:03 ET
    Posted by: Josey, Birmingham

    Rajah - appreciate the mention!

    As for this 2VN thing: When I count the time out in this tune - which is a basic samba pattern based on what the bass drum and hi-hat are playing - I count it as 123456 123456. Samba's are typically known to be in the time signature of 6/8 and that's definitely a samba pattern being played in that tune. If I count starting at "1" and count the tune along with it's pulse, I count to six before I get back to the "1". I can count it in "3", but it doesn't feel natural - to me - to count it that way. Just my opinion.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 16:48:15 ET
    Posted by: rajah fading fast,

    YGK, maybe you have something there, maybe the sheet music ain't so fulla shite. Yes, I can reconcile a strong but leisurely 3/4 underneath everything but there's so much other stuff laid on top that it somehow, I loose my way very quickly, I'm probably not decribing this well but think of a classic waltz: and-ah-1-2-3-ah-1-2-3-ah 1-2-3 but this thing is inverted, it's a 1-2-3-uh-1-2-3-uh-1-2-3-uh, something reversed, I hear that solid and fine. But it's that Dolphy-esque counter rhythm, it starts with those horn touches, then the percussionist proper, and by that I mean claps and conga, kicks in at let's say, 20 seconds in. A quick step waltz to begin, then like a Lindy-hop thing, oh Jesus, I can't even believe I'm old enough to recall the Lindy, but yes, slow, slow, slow, sah-slow slow slow, then quick quick quick quick quick quick step quick step slow slow slow slow slow slow slow. OK, I'm feverish and crazy but this is what I hear. There's six going on here, there's an eight in there too, all under a four alternating with a six denominator. Marvelous. Carlock himself probably couldn't tell us how it all turned out on record. It's twisty, rescues a dreary Sunday and in any case, faaaa-bulous.


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 16:44:47 ET
    Posted by: h w t, Cafe Ghana

    so what I am saying there could be differing notations; what is 4/4 C (cut time) can also often be read as 2/2 or 2/4. I mean if the drums and bass are doing 1/8s on 6/4 couldn't that be 6/8? It's in the accents, and predominant note--1/4, 1/8, 1/16-- not just the pulse. sorry if that's a bit snooty.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 16:32:28 ET
    Posted by: hoops, passnthrunstuf

    This morning on NPR they had this segment on Sid and Marty Krofft, known to those who might know as the braintrust behind "H.R. Pufnstuf." Hadn't thought of it in ages, and, I only saw the commericials for it when it came out circa 1969/1970. What I didn't know was the same artistic tour de force was also behind "The Donny and Marie Show." Thinking as I do, I had to reconsider those remarks from the notes to "Citizen Steely Dan." Maybe Donny and Marie and middle America didn't know what they were singing about when they sang about "the weekend at the college" and "the things that pass for knowledge," but with the H.R. Pufnstuf connection, I now can't help but fantasize that their producers knew exactly. The Krofft's, assuming they were involved, must have had a yuck or two at D+M's cover of D+W's ditty, just like those store muzak programmers who throw in "Rose Darlin."

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 16:31:26 ET
    Posted by: hoops, passnthrunstuf

    This morning on NPR they had this segment on Sid and Marty Krofft, known to those who might know as the braintrust behind "H.R. Pufnstuf." Hadn't thought of it in ages, and, I only saw the commericials for it when it came out circa 1969/1970. What I didn't know was the same artistic tour de force was also behind "The Donny and Marie Show." Thinking as I do, I had to reconsider those remarks from the notes to "Citizen Steely Dan." Maybe Donny and Marie and middle America didn't know what they were singing about when they sang about "the weekend at the college" and "the things that pass for knowledge," but with the H.R. Pufnstuf connection, I now can't help but fantasize that their producers knew exactly. Themselves having a yuck or two at D+M's cover of D+W's ditty.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 16:30:23 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    syncopation is simply beats accented not on the first beat, whether it is 1/4 or 1/8: if these are 8ths in 4/4--x X x X x x x X ; that's syncopated: most jazz in 4/4 is accented on 2nd 8th or dotted 3rds (the ride ), and 2vn has lots of accents off the first beat, or on triplets implied or played. No way in 3/4; simply because there is one kick drum or bass line that hits ever 3 notes sometimes doesn't make it 3/4. Whoever counted out the vocal got the 6 beat right. Since there are both 1/4s and 1/8s and I think irregularly accented/dotted triplets (the claps and cymbals) then it's a matter of determining whether it is more 1/8-y or 1/4-y.

    And there is plenty of syncopation. The first few bars with the sax squeaks sound like polyrhythm of 3/4 against 4/4--who is playing on the beat?; when the bass kicks in and the "claps" that is in 6; certainly not 3--though if I took the time I think it could be transcribed in 12/4 or 12/8 (that way one can play the triplets against 1/8s and 16th notes). 6/4 and 6/8 are fairly common african/carribean rhythms; 3/4 a bit closer to Tejas or maybe a polka pardner

    . ------------------

    Our Phearless Leader buying some gear

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 15:31:12 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    Hwt: that’s BS, man. Syncopations aren’t syncopations without the reference to the meter. The meter is prime. Syncopations DO NOT indicate meter, dude. Sheesh.
    Start counting in your preferred meter – before the song begins – and see how it fits. Then try another feel, and see how that works.

    I can easily feel 2vn as a 3/4, if you conduct a leisurely three, you can feel it. I can also hear what Fagen calls a 6/4, the feel being a rather ‘quickstep’: one-two-three-four-five-six.
    It couldn’t be a 6/8 because of the divisions, which would give it a ‘two’ feel, and that clearly doesn’t happen. It could be etiher 3/4 or a 6/4 – it all depends on what you count as a quarter. It would probably be helpful for us to agree on what is quarter, and/or what is an eighth.

    Try conducting it in 3/4 and see how it feels, or try walking the 6/4. Honestly, I think it feels better in 3/4.


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 15:05:48 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    h.w.t.: Nice breakdown of the polyrhythms on TvN - excellent point about the cymbals. The 3/4-4/4 (hand claps) type clash type stuff with the African influence gives the song an air of excitement, or is it Dread... or is the whacks of rulers by nuns from my distant past? Feeeeeeel the make things even better, the piano stabs, bass, and rhythm guitar add to the rhythm dissonance...what an intro! - I program my player to always start with the title cut!!!

    Chrysler, Howard: Looking through some theory web sites, as a gear head type I kind of like the mathematics of the duple (ganger) nomenclature better than the heavy/light beat German thing...they place asymetric meters in a separate category...

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 14:39:48 ET
    Posted by: Finalmente,

    Et tu, Alkali, my blood, "aqua puro, catso duro."

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 14:30:14 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, oh yeah

    Our man Josey ain't got no flies on him either...

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 14:28:30 ET
    Posted by: Rajah in absentia, home sick as a bow-wow

    You guys are the bees knees, learned so much from Howard and Mu over over the last couple years. And Daddy, Chrysler, HWT and ph ain't too shabby either. I've studied music on and off all my life, to us Gumbas, music is like air, we all sing, we all play something. OK, we're not all Pavarotti.

    Here's the thing about 2vN: it's those friggin handclaps and conga beats that make this soooo deceiving. But I think Howard has something with "ONE two TWO two THREE two ONE two TWO two THREE two."

    If you're a drummer or just into chicky-chicky, this song is IT. This drum track is the hottest thing they ever did and worth the twenty year wait. I'm convinced that Keith Carlock made his career because of this song, the 2 must have been so impressed. It's genius.

    Two Against Nature, Tan and Lean.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 13:38:51 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Sometimes the difference between say 6/4 and 6/8 (or even 4/4 or 8/4) is just a matter of how one treats the accents and stresses. If you say it has 6 beats but with quarter notes then a lot of the syncopations--the hand claps, the percussion--are off the beat on dotted 8ths, triplets etc., and going across the bar (extending for two measures of the 6/4, it could then be 12/4 really). The ride cymbal seems like in 8ths with rests and some accents on the 2nd eigth. Anyway much african drumming has two or more time signatures (say a 4/4 against 3/4) which interlock every 4 or 5 bars, and if you took the time to notate 2vn one could argue for some sort of polyrhythm structure like that: Sting does that polyrhythm thing (as did King Crimson).

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 13:08:58 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Howarad, Chrysler: There are other, older views on even defining simple and compound meters. Indiana University is the finest Music School within Public Higher Education, particularly classical. I trust them rat least as much as Wilkipedia. I learned this outside Chicago, - the old German way - where you needed a STRONG and a WEAK beat for a compound meter.

    "compound meter

    (zusammengesetzte Tactart) a term used by eighteenth-century German theorists (Mattheson, Walther, Marpurg, Scheibe, Koch, and Riepl) for measures containing more than one pair of strong and weak beats (e.g., 4/2, C, 12/8). Each measure of this type contains two or more simple measures, which contain only one strong-weak pair of beats. In a compound 4/4 measure, the first and third beats receive equal metric weight. A single bar therefore could be renotated as two 2/4 bars without changing the accentual structure. Similar equivalence may inhere between 4/2 and 2/2, and between 12/8 and 6/8. In choosing between compound meters (e.g., 4/2, 4/4, 12/8) and their simple equivalents (2/2, 4/4, 6/8), baroque composers typically followed traditions of tempo and style. Simple meters customarily denoted lightness and quick tempi, as in the bourée, passapied, and fast gigues and finales. Compound meters were employed in more stately movements, including allemandes, first movements of concertos, preludes, and slow introductions. See also Grave (1985), large 4/4 and large alla breve."

    Despite the weird handclaps and drum machine overlaying Carlock's drums on TvN, I could be wrong but all the beats sound the same strength - why I leaned to 6/4 - even though I could buy the argument of 2 bars of 3/4 in simple meter. 6/8 is definitely like a fast waltz or march and compound meter.

    Most define it as the top number that CAN be divsible by 3:

    My daughter, who just made all-district- and is the only 7th grader to do so on the baritone (Dr. Fagen's instrument on the high school band) can hear virtually any note on any song and tell me what it is (her brother really gets hacked off when corrected) insisted yesterday that TvN is 6/4 - I may not know music, but she does. The Middle School band gave a jaw-dropping performance last year at X-mas. I think she did learn 6/4 as compound duple looking through her theory book.

    Anyway, great f**ing song!

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 13:05:54 ET
    Posted by: Daddy G., Trying to make sense of the suburban sprawl...

    All this talk of time signatures and counts (which is over my head) reminded me of the review I read in Sunday's Philly Inquirer of the new Kate Bush CD(s) due out today. The review is by Dan (Don't call me Dean) DeLuca and for what it's worth, here's the second half of it...

    Kate Bush, Aerial (Sony ***)
    (Free registration required to view online)

    . . . .

    If anyone was concerned that motherhood and middle age had ironed out Bush's eccentricities, not to worry. "Aerial," out Tuesday, is a 16-song, double-disc collection divided into two parts, titled "A Sea of Honey" and "A Sky of Honey." One song features Bush repeating the words "washing machine" as she melds the corporeal and ethereal; >>>ANOTHER BUILDS A CHORUS OUT OF THE DECIMAL DIGITS OF PI.<<< All the traits that make Bush a love-her-or-blame-her-for-Tori-Amos artist are present---she sings along with birds, and tends toward New Agey mysticism. The good news is that Bush's flair for harmonic invention is intact, and songs like "A Coral Room," written for her late mother, combine undeniable beauty with emotional resonance. Add Bush to the growing list of storied acts, from the Rolling Stones to Stevie Wonder, who have regained their footing in 2005.

    Now I wonder what sort of time signature a recitation of pi could have? Is there such a thing as sideways 8/8? (I can't actually type a sideways 8 or I would to better get across the idea---joke?---of the infinity symbol.)


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 11:52:36 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Naw 2vN is 6/8 (or possibly 12/8): count out the vocal and phrasing 6 beats a bar: but there's a sort of off-beat synth-clap and samba-like syncopation on the 8ths--not quite a polyrhythm--which throws it off: triplets playing aagint 8ths give it that african sound.

    Oould try to notate bass if I had time, but the riff is in 6 bars:

    du...du..du du -du du du

    du di du du du duh

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 09:59:06 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Clas: Yes, great to be back in the the warmth!!
    Re-discovering the delights of the Night Fly and very happy that I know nothing of the technicalities of music except what my ear tells me is good - so I don't get sucked in to the current thread!!

    Ann - warm and loving it!

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 09:35:04 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, OCD

    Mu, I'm sorry, but I AM correct.

    Any meter in which the beats are divisible by two is simple meter, including 3/8 (three beats, duple division of each beat).

    Any meter in which the pulses are divisible by three is compound meter, including 6/4 (two pulses, triple subdivision of each pulse).

    9/8 and 12/4 are also examples of compound meter.

    However, the main PULSE in any given meter is not so "simple;" it has to be felt. There's only one main pulse in 3/4 waltz time, but there are three main pulses in 3/4 (or 3/2) "2vN" time.

    Thinking about it some more, I think the FEELING of the six beats in the meter of "2vN" is better served by a 3/2 rather than a 3/4 time signature.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 08:51:58 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Mu - if the time sig has 6 or 12 at the top, it's compound time. If it has 2, 3 or 4, it's simple time.



    Alternative form of the same basic 2VN question is:

    Do you count like this:
    ONE two TWO two THREE two ONE two TWO two THREE two

    or this:
    ONE two three TWO two three ONE two three TWO two three


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 08:28:16 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    C'mon back Raj. We promise to put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 08:11:51 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Chrysler: I'm sorry, that is not correct. At least the way I was taught. Believe me, I'd rather still play the piano well then know this trivia...

    4/4. 3/4, 6/4, 3/2 are examples of simple meters

    3/8, 6/8, 9/8. and 12/8 are examples of compound meters

    5/4, 7/4, 5/8, 7/8 are examples of odd time meters

    I'm still going with 6/4

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 08:01:25 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Mu - I think you missed the point. As Chrysler underlined, the key difference between 3/4 (or 3/2) and 6/8 (or 6/4), is whether you have TWO strong beats, each of which divide into three, or whether you have THREE strong beats per bar, each of which divides into two. In both cases, you end up with 6 "smaller" beats - so the fact you hear 6 beats per bar avoids the key question!

    The question is - do you group the 6 beats into two groups of three (6/8, 6/4), or three groups of two (3/4, 3/2).

    So, for the chorus, you either count:
    (1)Two against (2)nature (3)don't you (1)know (in 3/4)

    (1)Two against nat-(2)ure don't you (1)know (in 6/8)

    I think it's clearly the first one - 3/4 (or maybe 3/2).

    ... and as we know, although Donald knows a lot more about music theory these days, he's not an expert and he's been known to make mistakes before. Either he didn;t want to correct the interviewer (unlikely), or he didn't appreciate the difference between simple triple (3/4) and compound duple (6/8) time.


    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 06:20:14 ET
    Posted by: The Jungle Line,


    ph - Becker told Guardian's Barney Hoskyns "it's about the songwriters' invocation of their own powers to overcome the natural and supernatural forces arrayed against them. They're offering to help their audience prevail in the face of all sorts of mysterious and frightening beings."


    Ann - you're back in the jungle? Is it good to be back or... ?



    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 05:58:23 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, addendum

    Or 3/2.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 05:53:23 ET
    Posted by: Chrysler, stickler for accuracy

    Howard has the best take on the meter in "2vN"--the problem with the interpretation as 6/4, DF notwithstanding, is that 6/4 is COMPOUND meter, i.e., it's a meter heard in TWO divisions of three, with the emphasis on the DUPLE rhythm (1 and 2 and 1 and 2 and etc.). You just don't hear that in the song.

    The meter in "2vN" is: 1 and 2 and 3 and / 1 and 2 and 3 and etc., and therefore TRIPLE meter--3/4, just don't think "waltz."

    All waltzes are 3/4, but not all 3/4s are waltzes.

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 05:37:42 ET
    Posted by: SS, HK that Hotel California request meant to bring Rajah back to the Blue from his just-announced hiatus ? Please...the man is trying to make it to grandfatherdom.

    How about Superstition..or any number of S. Wonder tunes ?

    Georgy Porgy by Toto

    Miss Sun by Boz Scaggs

    Van Morrison's Blue Money

    EJ's Bennie and the Jets

    TOP's Down to the Nightclub

    Hey...could be a long list.....

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 05:29:07 ET
    Posted by: Frank Johnson,

    Good service

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 03:44:27 ET
    Posted by: Due With Buzz, Somewhere Over The Rainbow

    Howdy. Dr WuTang paved the way for some comic relief in Yellow, although he was serious in his wishful thinking about songs to play if Steely Dan is to tour again. Well, so am I!

    Songs I would like to hear SD play if they ever decide to tour again:

    •Somewhere Over The Rainbow (Walt on vocals)
    •String Of Pearls (Glenn Miller's, with Walt performing a slick solo and Donald/Babe Choir scatting the melody... and a mini big band with all the Steely Dan brass alumni paying tribute to Cornelius Bumpus this way...)
    •No Woman No Cry
    •Kid Charlemagne
    •Hotel California

    yours sincerely,

    Date: Tues, November 08, 2005, 03:28:45 ET
    Posted by: moray eel, dan


    Love the idea of booking SD for the next Danfest. Who needs cover bands?


    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 21:57:25 ET
    Posted by: bIlYkWJ8HbKKdQ0, bIlYkWJ8HbKKdQ0

    <a href=></a> - shemale

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 21:11:46 ET
    Posted by: pu, oly shite!

    Apparently anyone can book Steely Dan! How about everyone here on the Blue Book chips in and we can have our own private show!! Who's in?

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 20:41:35 ET
    Posted by: bIlYkWJ8HbKKdQ0, bIlYkWJ8HbKKdQ0

    <a href=></a> - shemale sex

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 17:13:48 ET
    Posted by: Mr. Lapage,

    Not sure if this has been posted, but Aja is performing in Newport, KY (Cincinnati area) on November 18 (

    This is one outstanding band - saw them at the Cincy Danfest. If you're close to the area I'd highly recommend them.

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 15:01:28 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    Hoops, I reckon you've got the right idea.
    As for what you said about 'Bluebook threads' I'm not sure if there is a SOLID thread. There'll be some string going along, which everyone talks about. The someone brings along a pair of scissors and some more intresting string (which someday might grow into a thread), cuts the old string and begins a whole new discussion phase with his/her piece of string.
    But no matter how hard we all try, nobodys string ever seems to grow into a thread, although everyone wants theirs to grow into a big strong rope.
    Neat little analogy, wasn't it?

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 14:04:26 ET
    Posted by: hoops,

    Raj, just to show you how out of touch I am with the specifics of things of late, I had no idea this was somehow about you.

    Peace and love, kiddies.


    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 14:01:45 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Don't forget, Danoids of Calickfornia, to oppose Ahhnuld, King of the World, and vote No on his ludicrous Propositions (Yes on 79 though: keep drugs inexpensive).

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 13:50:18 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, cloud 9

    Bravely stated, Hoopsie, I get you, sorry for my own transgressions in the past, but here's the email of the "Echo" guy who has appeared here in so many forms: --- bogus of course

    Echo, you're right to be an incedible asshole is protected and I must say, you're doing beautifully at it. My compliments to you, your mother, your wife, your children, everyone and everything you hold dear. They must be very proud of you. Be well, be happy, but bitch... surely you must know - you don't have the caliber to stand with the likes of me, can't touch this.

    I'm outta here for a while, I'll be back when Donald returns, it's too intense for me here right now. I apologize for being too overly much, well, myself...but now don't disappoint me, get your groove on Blue. And let me hear from my dear esteemed collegues Peter Q and Pink, big time boys, lovely gentlemen, please don't desert us.

    Laters for me,

    Baba David Di Giannantonio Rajah,, one convenient location, open 24 hours a day.

    Peace to all...

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 13:21:27 ET
    Posted by: hoops,


    Have a family situation that is making it very hard for me to keep up with and think thoroughly about recent BlueBook threads, not to mention be at work all the time, but obviously I do pop in every now and then each day to remove those goofy spambot posts.

    That said, I am unable to follow with detail any of the recent "personality debates" of the past few days, which I am getting glimpses of. I did enjoy the time signatures thread on 2vN and so forth, as much as I could read and understand.

    So I write this as a general statement: Things tend to get out of hand when a small minority of people place their personalities in higher priority, above why were are here, which is friendship and discussion of all things vaguely Steely Dan-related. Some people get out of whack in this regards when they insult others (under their own, usual name or as anons) and others do this sorta thing in ways that are more passive aggressive, but it gets to be clear to others when it's "all about them" —even if it is SD-related—and not about the welfare of the Greater Dandom. (The attitude "I didn't do nothing! I'm right!" —not to be confused with some good debate where people agree to disagree and leave it at that for the better Dandom.)

    I don't hold grudges—clearly there are some people I enjoy chatting with here that would have been hard to believe a couple of years ago—but I also don't warmly embrace and encourage this small minority I just described to participate here until they make ammends and change their past nasty ways; things that have either overtly or behind the scenes have hurt the Bluebook, things that are rather selfish rather than thinking of all of us. Some of these feel justified because of false superiority or real or imagined slights here, and then have done under-radar things in an attempt to hurt all of us. Again, I think it's obvious to regulars that I don't hold grudges, but I also don't welcome or encourage people continuing behavior that hurts our group either. It's also obvious to those who know me that I'm not a black and white thinker but, suprisely, an almost annoyingly open and fuzzy thinker--so one could argue we all do some of this to varying degrees.

    Again, I have some personal things going on so I can't say specifically what or whom the personality debate is about or if I'm misunderstanding and that there is nothing of the sort going on; yet, that's great, since you can consider that I say the above without any specific finger pointing. Thanks to those who have offered their thoughts and good vibes to me in my personal endeavors as well as to the Bluebook.



    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 10:06:32 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    I have to agree with the 6/4 count - a 6/8 would have a more "rounder" swing feel to it.......which IMHO it doesn't. And based on the lyrical phrasing, the lyrics seem to point out the 6 - notice how each line begins with a new 6.......

    mahrvehluus, tuhnej, eh?


    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 09:33:27 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Rajah - Congratulations on your pending Grandfather status! That's excellent and I'm very happy for you. And, for what it's worth (which is nothing), I have zero curiosity re: Gretchens grooming habits - but the way you phrased that last request was damn funny!

    As for the discussion re: 2VN - I get a count of 13/8 time. Now, who drank the rest of my scotch??

    I count that tune in the time of 6. If I count it in 3/4, it doesn't seem to follow the natural pulse of the song. Stay tuned for more worthless opinions!

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 09:29:37 ET
    Posted by: echoes from the future, the sign post up ahead

    Is that a little girl? Do you here a little girl crying Ace?
    "Why's everybody always picking on me? oh Charley Brown he's a Rajah clown" That Charley Brown.

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 09:26:46 ET
    Posted by: ph, grokking the shape of things to go

    What a bizzare song; one of the only sd songs I can't assign an iota of sense to. Does anybody know what it's about, or means, or even has an idea of what the hell is going on??

    Congratulations, Rajah!! I want to be a grandfather someday so I can spoil the grandkids and not feel the aftereffects of spoiling them. :D

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 08:51:34 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Howard: I must humbly disagree. Maybe it's my extra pinky, but I count 6 beats/measure in quarter notes...and that makes TvN song thus 6/4

    For example (hope the space bar sticks here - Sorry hoops - edit out the 1st one)):

    Bad news breaking

    in EighteenA

    Missy's kitty turn inside

    out she say

    Spider queen demon and

    that whole crew

    Also, Dr. Fagen sez it's 6/4

    "JAM!: The title track has an odd time signature. Is it 6/4?

    Fagen: Yeah, 6/4."

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 08:46:55 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Howard: I must humbly disagree. Maybe it's my extra pinky, but I count 6 beats/measure in quarter notes...and that makes TvN song thus 6/4

    For example (hope the space bar sticks here):

    Bad news breaking
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    in EighteenA
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    Missy's kitty turn inside
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    out she say
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    Spider queen demon and
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    that whole crew
    1 2 3 4 5 6

    Also, Dr. Fagen sez it's 6/4

    "JAM!: The title track has an odd time signature. Is it 6/4?

    Fagen: Yeah, 6/4."

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 08:14:40 ET
    Posted by: Howard,

    Two Against Nature time signatures. I'm sure we've covered this at least once before, many months back...

    Mu, Dan B, hwt: it's definitely not 6/8 or 6/4. Dan - you answered this one perfectly when you talked about how you count to the song. You count *three* beats in each bar, not two. For example, in the chorus:
    (1)Two against (2)nature (3)dont you (1)know... etc

    If the bar is divided into three beats, then it's triple time - 3/4, 3/2 or similar. If it was 6/8 or 6/4, you would have *two* beats to the bar, each of which could be sub-divided into three. What we have in TVN is three beats in the bar, each of which sub-divides into two - hence simple triple time 3/4 or 3/2.

    Agreed - the accents and cross rhythms going on in the song make it a much more interesting 3/4 or 3/2 than you'll typically find, but the drums, keyboard and melody line all stick to a 3/4 (or 3/2) pattern.


    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 06:46:22 ET
    Posted by: Little Wild One, Or maybe not....

    Congratulations, Raj! And thanks for the kind words about les petite wild ones.... They are my reason to keep pedaling on this crazy road trip.

    Not sure if this qualifies as a tangentially Dan post, but I have a slinky rust colored cat named DeLuca, who is a wanderer. Now I'm not crazy about letting cats outside, but this one is very savvy and street smart. His new nickname, when we see him sauntering along the greenbelt that borders our yard is, "Man About Town," since he kinda reminds me of our Donald.

    And speaking of, Keith Carlock's newsletter and message board (check it out, if you haven't--he answered some questions last week) hints at big things to come in 2006.

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 05:39:25 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, so happy

    Thank you Ann and Paul,

    I can't sleep, I'm riding on air...

    so gratified, so thankful, words fail....

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 05:10:32 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Congrats Rajah!!!!

    Get saving...this one will definitely cost you big time!

    Date: Mon, November 07, 2005, 04:57:25 ET
    Posted by: Paul Carrack, asdf

    Rajah, you facist bastard. Don't push your religious beliefs on me!

    (trying to re-establish the tone ...)

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 23:33:57 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    LW1 - You should drink Martinis more often, you should post more often, you are a formidable woman, a very fine mother and a dear dear girl. I can say that cause I've been around this world quite a while now, traveled so many roads, made oh so many missteps, yes and as you so cruelly have remind me, fucked up so many times it's true, but still and all, I have come to know a great many, many things. But I must take exception, my spirit is larger even than my ego, albeit both perhaps are overblown and not for any particularly good reason. We all have our inconsistencies, our weaknesses and our hypocrisies but when we stand here together, here as a community, we are bound by something much, much larger than some silly but pleasing entity called, Steely Dan. We have become friends and comrades, brothers and sisters in arms, people of good heart who stand by one another, who do not tear each other apart unless of course, something really really funny and absurd crops up. We have gotten to know each other, admire each other, get pissed off by each other. I can tell you without embarassement that those two dear little girls of yours, Wild 1, stole my cold cold heart in a nanosecond of meeting them, they are precious jewels, as are you, dear girl.

    Peter Q belongs with us, Pink belongs with us, our dear Prefect and Host Hoops of course belongs with us, Clas that pain in the ass, that Dot bitch whom i will strangle someday, all ourdear friends on the yellow who do not post here for whatever reason which personally I think is just plain silly and pigheaded, whatevah, we belong with us. All us idiots belong with us. My dear wife Gretchen, the sweetest and dearest soul I've ever met, and I are together with no small debt to this stupid and inconsequential little Guestbook and it has very very litle to do with some pop group hardly anyone remembers called Steely Dan. So children, put yours hands on the PC screen and chant with me, the Reverend Rajah from the Church of What's Happenin' Now right here in Del Rio, Texas, Amen y'all, let's stay together, loving us whether, hunh, whether, times are good or bad, happy or sad.

    And having said all that drivel, Dear Blue, let me get serious for one second here and tell you all that today is one of the happiest days of my life. It is with great pleasure and humility that I can announce that my daughter and her husband are with child, I stand to be a grandfather within a few months if all goes well, God willing, and on this night, my heart is filled with unspeakable joy, I am humbled and I am overflowing with happiness, sniff sniff. Please share my joy with me if you will and forestall all comments as to whether my spouse shaves or waxes her pussy, and as I have so often shared my joy with you all in the past, today, and hopefully, for many many days to come, join my in a big Mutha-Fuckin Halleluiah!

    Baba God Willing GrandPaPa Rajah

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 22:07:07 ET
    Posted by: SS, HK

    HWT...I've long thought TVN was in 6/8 time. Guess it brings the question - how to value a quarter note. I get six eighth notes per measure a lot easier than anything else. I could slow it all down on the count and get 3 quarter notes, but that's not what I hear naturally.

    Martinis eh, Wild One ?

    Been rather a martini autumn in the, South hasn't it ?

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 21:04:32 ET
    Posted by: Little Wild One, receiving mode


    Who's with me here? This journey is way too short to let bs get in the way of sharing...(you know the rest...).

    Peter Q is one of the most oddly smart folks I've met. Is he always spot on logic-wise? Hell no. Do I admire him for the person he has become? Sure. Has he referred to some of the Blue folks as "Know Nothings"? Yep. Does that include me and those I care about? Probably. Do I wish he was more REAL? Of course. SOoooooo?

    Raj is...a big personality. Huge spirit, bigger ego. I love him like the brother I never had. He fucks up BIG TIME and usually admits it. SOooooo?

    I'm not even going to go into Hoops. Not a gentler person ever was made. Does he have heros and villains? Yep. And he is entitled to, since this is his pad? Of course. I've ALMOST never seen anyone shown the door...and I stand by that statement, W1P. Like Raj, I wish you two could bridge the gap.

    I think this may be the longest post I ever wrote...I should drink martinis more often.

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 19:50:40 ET
    Posted by: W1P, The Valley

    OK, the cell phone call has prompted me to write the following: "hello"

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 18:20:35 ET
    Posted by: X, .....

    something old, something new, something borrowed for Blue... revisited

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 13:08:26 ET
    Posted by: levy/harmonicats,

    Howard Levy is also a stunning jazz player on both piano and harmonica. Nice guy too.
    The last remaining Harmonicat used to eat lunch in the food court below the Marina Towers in Chicago. My father would join him every week when not traveling because he worked for IBM across the street from Marina City. Mr. Harmonicat was old then and that was about 15 years ago.

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 12:20:24 ET
    Posted by: ph, programmed by fellows with compassion and vision

    Ann, the Nightfly DVD-A is fantastic. I can't find it on Amazon anymore (seems like surround audio is being phased out just about everywhere nowadays) but there's always eBay. I would buy it just for the New Frontier video, and the surround mixed music itself is like a whole nother album.

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 12:06:06 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    2vN is in 6/8 or 6/4 methinx. Musically, it's OK; I don't know--sort of like a Sting thing. Harmonically it's bit Ho hum. West of Hollywood: now that is a Dan track. Jack of Speed too, though might have used more dissonance. Almost Gothic is a nice tune; sounds like earlier Dan. Shame about Me. 2vN must have took some work, and does have excellent sections, but I still find it sort of like Gaucho--a bit too cocktaily, groove-oriented. Somewhere in like the 80s Don and Walt became enamored with that R & B back-beat; the earlier stuff--even Royal Scam--is preferable sometimes in terms of the str8-er rhythms. Yasss Josey is classic; but so is Caves of Altamira or Charlemagne. Don & Walt might have used a few classes in odd meter with Zappa or someone

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 08:55:05 ET
    Posted by: Cold Porter,


    Fans! For the first time in history you are now able to take a look at the mysterious steam powered dildo "The Steely Dan".

    At the Gallery:

    See you there!


    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 07:27:36 ET
    Posted by: Cool Porter,


    Two Against Nature is the only song The Two used a sequence to trigger a bass-synth. And they borrowed the word "grok" from Robert Heinlein's book "Stranger in a Strange Land".

    //C, apsatively...


    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 06:11:36 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, still can't get to sleep after W1P

    Annie, honey, mispellings are our hallmark, the surest test of a true Blue.

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 05:40:19 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Bad-spelling-land

    Oooops!! that's



    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 04:15:18 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    ...or even Edward Grieg...

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 04:06:31 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Nice diggin, Grette, Thank you.

    Spent an incredible evening tonight with our Peter Q, Scouser and W1P at the Canyon Club in Agoura enjoying an absolutely magnificent performance of "The Wall" to a packed and screaming hall of 2000+ people spanning like three generations. The kids, the young people and old fucks like me.

    Pink and his blood Larry have built a redoutable band, wow, it was more like seeing Tosca or a Krieg symphony. Props where props are due, Which One's Pink has to be the best Tribute Band of its kind in the US today, spectacular, no blowin smoke up anybody's butt. Every darn tiny little nuance of "The Wall" was delivered to an astonishingly faithful degree, we felt drained afterward, great, great work, Pink and Larry. Plus Pinky boy set us up at Mrs. Pink's table, thank you, dear lady, for your hospitality, lovely and charming as ever. Powerful band, powerful images, all the strum und drang you could ever ask for, a bevy of teenage girls being cute on stage, this thing deserves to be made into a legit stage play.

    Thank you Peter, such a gentleman, hope me and Scouser's rendering of "Year of the Cat" didn't scare you too much on the way home. Al Stewart had a lisp that would alarm Paul Lynde. First time I met PQ after many missives and he can best be described as a cuddly contract killer, seriously, a very dear man and shame on anybody for the crap he's given. Course, Gretchen describes he and I as the East and West Coast Boring Blowhards of the Blue so I gues it's a matter of one's sensibilities. Thank you Peter. Thanks old Scouse and Pink, I really miss you on the Blue, Pinkster. Please come home, I'm sure you and Hoops can kiss and make up.

    Gretchen and I do it on a daily basis and I'm the meanest SOB on here.

    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 03:57:56 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Borneo

    Finally back in Borneo from cold, miserable, over-priced UK. Managed to pick-up Aja and Night Fly on CD. Night Fly had a sticker on that said it was available in DVD-Audio. I asked the assistant but he had never heard of DVD-Audio...looks like I'll have to wait a bit longer for surround sound!!

    Met up with the old (!!??) friend who had gone with me to the SD concert in 1974 in Manchester. She told me a story that related to a thread from the Blue a few months ago about the Old Grey Whistle test and "Whispering" Bob Harris, it's greatly respected presenter. She had heard an interview with Bob a few months ago and he was asked which were, in his opinion, the best ever bands. He replied "the Beatles and Steely Dan". Now I understand why I was always a great fan of his show.

    Seems that you folks in the Blue are a bit "blue" at the moment. I don't think I've ever read a joke posted on here, so maybe now is the time to cheer you all up. I heard this while I was back home...and for those of you who don't know, North West England produces most of the UK's comedians. This one was told by Peter Kay who hails from my home town. He claims he phoned Pizza Hut and ordered a "Thin and Crusty Supreme" they sent him Diana Ross!

    ........and if you can bear more, down-load FREE "Bored of the Rings" from, starring my second cousin! (he's the one who's king of the elves, with the pointy ears!!)

    Peace to all!


    Date: Sun, November 06, 2005, 00:12:16 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    Levy produces an interesting if somewhat odd tone on his harpmonicat; doesn't seem real Dan-like--a bit more "folky"--but what the F, Huck. Interesting to hear what he squeaked for Maestro Don. And speaking of HarmoniCats, anyone ever hear the original? Peg o My Heart and all that. Eerie 50's Spacepop really, dubbing a couple chromatics and some bass harp together. Where are they now? Probably in some single-wides in Garden Grove, or a rest home, or the cold, cold ground. For freak-jass chromatic Larry Adler was about the best; a bit too broadway-y or Benny Goodman-like for moi but recorded a bunch of standards with Django Reinhardt; Larry kept up with Djangos 16th's pretty fair. Ya don't hear many of these chitlin's cats--harp, gee-tar, even sax or keys-- running through Lush Life arpeggios with the sort of velocity and control that Adler had; even Toots T-mann didn't get the clean clarinety tone that Adler did.

    Date: Sat, November 05, 2005, 18:49:12 ET
    Posted by: IE,

    Even the scraps are tasty, Gretchen. Muchos Gratias.

    I also liked the recent bits on time sigs. Tho I don't understand it.

    Date: Sat, November 05, 2005, 18:29:46 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, .........and there's more

    Still looking for links, found this small item, apparently there will be some harmonica, too:

    Can't help but think from recent posts we could all use some Shiro Dara.


    Date: Sat, November 05, 2005, 17:26:25 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, still looking........

    Apparently, Donald was in Avatar Studios May, June, and August. I feel like the paparrazzi now, forgive me Donald. We just need a little something.


    Date: Sat, November 05, 2005, 17:17:11 ET
    Posted by: Gretchen, searching.................

    Subjects are getting murky in here! In desparation I searched for any tidbit on the whereabouts of Mr. Fagen and was able to uncover this article.

    Scroll down to see the NORTHEAST heading - info is underneath!


    Date: Sat, November 05, 2005, 03:10:31 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Dan, the sheet music says 2vN is a Moderato 3/4, which is, of course, ridiculous. It's definitely a topheavy time signature, not a waltz, given Keith's handclaps and congas which we know from the horse's mouth on his website months ago. Very misleading and twisty, very hard to nail just playing the kit.

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 21:53:26 ET
    Posted by: ph,

    Rajah, no one expects the... oh, bugger.

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 20:47:33 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    Doc Mu, I agree. Two Against Nature is in 6/4. (If you are in doubt, count out one...two...three... it fits perfectly.) Gotta agree though, Carlock's set is way back in the mix. I bet that groove is thunderous if you move it up (hell, even the 5.1 mix on the DVD-A version helps).

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 20:05:30 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, misspellings, misstatements, misunderstandings, malapropisms and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - oh damn screwed up again, forgot misanthropy!

    Exit Stage Left,
    Baba *I'll Be Back* Rajah

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 19:21:56 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,



    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 19:21:00 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    You're damn skippy we love confusion, in fact, a cleverly masked confusion is one of our cheif elements of surprise. Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four* *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again...

    Darn, almost got it right.
    Wrong-Way Rajah

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 19:19:49 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Lordship: It's a creepy - just like MJ, good analogy (I noticed a number of the jurists later admitted he was probably guilty - they were just late for their book deals), coded song belied by the cheerful, sunny Latin beat. Dr. Fagen dusts off his sax. It's interesting in that the narrator is like the carny guy who stands outside the peep show or the woman with two heads...probably a literary device to further obfuscate the statuatory crimes...


    Kids if you want some fun
    Mr. LaPage is your man
    He's always laughing, having fun

    [A carnival MC calling the kids in for a "show"]

    Showing his films in the den

    [dark, cheap wood paneling, shag carpet, a taxidermy fiasco on the wall]

    Come on, come on
    Soon you will be eighteen
    I think you know what I mean

    [underage - makes me feel like using a camera again...possibly you]

    Don't tell your mama
    Your daddy or mama
    They'll never know where you been

    [ No llamas in this theme park, buddy]

    Everyone's gone to the movies
    Now we're alone at last

    [parents and any semblence of protective adult supervision - gone. This is a twisted soft-porn version of Pinocchio]

    Listen to what I say
    He wants to show you the way
    Right down the hallway with open arms

    [the hallway metaphor is particularly creepy - to a world of degeneracy and sexual abuse]

    To teach you a new game to play

    [back before sex and health ed classes - an open world for the curious and gullible. Game is a critical hook phrase for a kid.]

    Come on, come on
    Soon it will be too late
    Bobbing for apples can wait

    [an oral suggestive - damn this song is sick!]

    We know you're used to sixteen or more
    Sorry we only have eight

    [that's the reference to 8mm film used in the porn industry of the it's digital video for a million and change...


    Kids if you want some fun
    See what you never have seen

    [the porno flick is just a warmup - now I have an image of MJ with a little rum and coke action]

    Take off your cheaters and sit right down

    [cheaters are either sunglasses - came in from a sunny day OR panties for pubescents - did these have print designs]

    Start the projection machine

    [start the show - Carn Evil...]

    Josey: 5/4; 7/4 whatever - Vinnie's the camp.

    How many Dan songs have time sigs other than 4/4 or 2/2

    the main part of Your Gold Teeth II is 3/4 of course.

    Tow Against Nature - is that 6/4?...darn drum machine - they should have mixed it way down without altering Carlock's drums. I don't think it's 5/4 at least in my head.

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 15:24:35 ET
    Posted by: His Lordship To Be, Worldlywise, I Realize, That Everybodys Crazy...Am I myself Or Just Another Freak?

    We love confusion here at the Bluebook.
    Doc Mu, I noticed you said Mr Lapage is a paedophile.
    I think he's got a freakish similarity to Micheal Jackson (yes, I know he was declared innocent, but the Jury apparently got a lot richer around the time he got a lot poorer during that trial...)
    'Shwoing his films in the den' might not be so innocent as it sounds.
    One things for sure, I wouldn't let any kid of mine go over to his place for a sleepover, even if he is a fictous charecter in a song.
    Anyway, ebjoy the weekend folks, it only lasts two days (one if you spend your sundays worrying about monday).

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 14:00:11 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    OK, now I'm back with my original assertion that "7 Days" is in 5/4. I realize that so many people truly give a shit and I don't know what else to do other than mix another drink! Confused for all the sorriness... I mean...nevermind.

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 13:01:29 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Watched Smallville the other night and noticed Rick Marotta's name in the closing credits. cool.

    I don't know which I enjoy more, seeing the French being rioted upon or watching those rioting Arabs getting clubbed by the French.
    I think it's a tie.

    "EGTTM" Is a definite reference to film size not penis dimension.

    "I know where baby's at, i know your filthy mind..."


    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 12:45:46 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Correction: My apologies, "Seven Days" is in the time of 7. Doc Mu had that one right from the start!

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 10:22:29 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Rajah - re: the 7 thing: I'm just here to help! Your thanks are appreciated, but not necessary.

    Doc - "Love Is Stronger.." is another great one. Although the "country" part of that tune is 4/4. The way Vinnie treats the verse section of that tune is a blast! "Seven Days" - which happens to be in the time signature of 5 - is another Vinnie classic. Sting obviously gave Vinnie free reign to do with it what he wanted. That cd probably has my favorite sounding snare on any music I have. Next time you have the opportunity, crank that one up and just listen to the damn "crack" of that snare! I need a moment....

    Date: Fri, November 04, 2005, 01:05:06 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu, See the glory of..

    Raj: Henri is too busy now running from this:

    I can't imagine in America hordes illegal immigrants teeming with the restless, the indigent, al Qaeda stuffed in shantytowns in canyons next to $900,00 homes with the rationalization that no one else will do the menial labor...what's that? We do? Nevermind...

    ...of the Royal Scam...

    don'cha just love The Donald's extra nasal deliver of "Royal"...a real palate cleanser...

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 21:30:55 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Henri - touche mon ami, touche. But mine makes sense. Yours is funnier though. Your point is made.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 20:15:44 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu, Really Max, have a cigar

    Drums: Mr. La Page is a pedophile... or at least a young teenophile.

    He's showing porno, which were filmed for low $ in 8mm acetate film (the mm refers to the width of the film) as opposed to 16 mm and 35 mm which was the norm for movies in theaters with the occasional exquisite 70 mm (Lawrence of Arabia, Sleeping Beauty). Obviously the greater the mm, the better the visual quality of the film.

    ...makes me feel like painting again

    you're never alone, not here...

    Josey, Raj: I dig the totally inappropriate 7/4 country song Love is Stronger than Justice (the Magnificant 7) on 10 Summoner's Tales. Seven Days (7/4 time in the verses) is yet another spectacular Vinnie vehicle, St Augustine, It's Probably Me, Shape of My Heart, Someting the Boy Said, Nothin' Bout Me are a heckuva run. Hard to believe that both Kamakiriad and Tales both lost out in the Grammy's to the Foster monstrosity Soundtrack from The Bodyguard...and the profits went up Bobby Brown's nostrils...

    Glad Josie mentioned the bell... make ya feel like a ship tossing about a lost buoy on a stormy night

    I really like Carlock in concert, but it sure would have been cool to have Colaiuta on the kit for EMG - he's so wicked on Negative Girl.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 20:14:25 ET
    Posted by: Henri Leausallunac, La Rue du Toulouse

    Re: Godwhacker

    I too must concur with the bracketing of the retro-ontological which Mssr. Fagen seems to hint at in his admittedly marginal remarks on the re-contextualization of the bio-political; is it not too egregious to suggest that the Heideggerian Dasein implicates itself in these rather hegemonic displays of the biopolitical? The anti-reificationist in me would tentatively claim, that yes, it is, but it is not: the rather imprecise specifics of the animalic-transcendent dichotomy indicated in "Godwhacker"--perhaps itself a somewhat inverted and Hegelian syntheticism--would lead one to hold, on the other hand, that such crises of negativity do in fact place the Godwhacker "subject" in both a perilous and shall we say non-sovereign state of aporiaist oscillation; an oscillation all the more problematic for its refusal to submit to any mere logocentric positionings or de-contextualized sublimination of the Real, ala Foucaultian or, indeed, Benjaminian neo-psychoanalytic strategies of historicization. There are perhaps some potential shortcomings with this Dionysian tactic, yes, but may be overcome by a rather severe re-valuation of the immanent body as well as, by animalization itself.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 19:45:39 ET
    Posted by: Rajah , cough cough

    It's either a referemce to penis size, although 8 I offer would be pretty darn gifted, 16 would be freakish, it's given me nothing but trouble all my life, [rimshot] thang you; or it's a reference to a solo take, 8 bars as opposed to 16. Third possibilty, 8 mm film as opposed to 16 mm. I vote for choice no. 3.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 19:34:00 ET
    Posted by: Drums McGee,

    "everyone's gone to the movies":

    'sorry, we only have eight.'

    someone help this poor uncultured secondary school student out with what this means.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 19:12:39 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, home sick as a dog

    You guys are the best, very informative and entertaining. The 7 thing, Josey, learned something there, thank you.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 17:03:26 ET
    Posted by: Paul Carrack, asdf

    Doctah -- I actually paused a second before hitting the 'post' button, thinking I'd want to add a "/she" to it, but nahhh...

    If Don goes nuts with the Pro Tools, he can effectively kiss his chances at charting top-75 goodbye.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 16:16:32 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    M'ore: And when they lock into the chorus - I believe it's the "4" right before the 1st chorus.......all comin' it......

    btw - not sailing, damn, but this is starting Saturday......the old Whitbread Worldwide........

    We have two in it.......(my temp adopted co.).......


    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 15:57:00 ET
    Posted by: M'ore,

    YGK: Don't have the CD here - but In the intro he starts not even on the half-beat then switches before the 1st chorus - then in the chorus he goes back off the half-beat. Bass and synth keys on different half-beats. Anyway, it's a cool almost funhouse effect.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 14:22:27 ET
    Posted by: YGK, nyc

    MuWhore! Mr. C is playing the "and"s [1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND] which makes it seem odd......


    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 14:12:27 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Josey - Perfect sense. Didn't know the strategy behind the bell.. Stewart Copleand did kind of the opposite with Spirits in the Material World. It's 4/4 I think but Copeland throws the listener way off base whacking early and late on the beat - it counts I swear like 7/4.

    Dan: I'm personally struck by the lively and open sound compared with hist later phase albums: In Square Circle, Characters, Jungle Fever, the boring Conversation Peace...

    Sounds more like Songs in the Key of Life, but not really the earlier stuff. If this is hyperproduced and back to classic sound, then count me in!!!... particularly on the first 8 songs...although I think the harp on Shelter in your Rain is a bit gratuitous...

    Keep Dr. Fagen away from those Damn Pro-Tools!...time limit is up!!!!

    Paul: I wouldn't assume any gender specificity... feminine-like thrusts with masculine sentence structure and hints of familiarity. It's whacky.

    Back to work...

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 10:42:08 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Doc Mu - I remember reading an interview with Vinnie where he said it was basically Sting's idea to keep that bell pattern on the ride cymbal going (on St. Augustine In Hell) to give the listener something to hold on to. A reference point, if you will. That bell pattern keeps going steadily throughout that groove, but the song's time signature is in 7, so it flip flops every bar. One moment it's on top of the beat and the next one it alternates against the beat. Hope that made/makes sense.

    Date: Thurs, November 03, 2005, 09:33:01 ET
    Posted by: HeyMike, Home of the White Sox

    ~A lot like 2vN; except 2vN was old, new, and brilliant all at once.~


    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 23:38:11 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Dan - you have a point about the Stevie Wonder album; it is a bit "lush" in production values. But I see it as a tip of the cap to his 70s records, like a travelogue, a farewell, and a last tribute.

    A lot like 2vN; except 2vN was old, new, and brilliant all at once.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 23:12:33 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    You're just another asshole Manny.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 23:08:13 ET
    Posted by: Manny, Pacoima Ca.

    Raj chico that's some ego you have, trailing you? now that's funny.
    All I see is some line from a movie, somebody wrote. Is that directed at you? That's some crystal ball you must have. Paranoid with a capitol P. chata' long live the LA Free Press.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 22:54:12 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    HWT - I have no beef with anyone who shows their colors. You can call me anything you want, I have a hide like an elephant. But I have had to endure comments about my closest peoples' private parts for goodness sake, I'm not someone who gets wound up easily but I'm telling you all again, when I find out who "dot" is, I will exact a punishment of apocalyptic proportions. Not a threat. A promise.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 22:46:21 ET
    Posted by: h w t ,

    Sorry to hear about it, Raj, but please don't blame me. My comments are confined to here, and I haven't threatened anyone or been porno-y lately, and if I do use proxies, I always use them for Good purposes.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 22:24:25 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Paul, the person who continues their malignant attacks is a sick motherfucker, someone who is allowed to mask their ID by Hoops' "Anon policy." It's the "dot" or "." guy.

    Now I'm not mad at Hoops, however it's someone who is taking advantage of his status and when I discover who he or she is, I vow to you all, they will have not one more momment of peace or solice.

    Sorry to lay this trip out on everyone but I have had enough.

    Who is the "dot" Hoops?

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 22:08:48 ET
    Posted by: Dan Belcher, Louisville, KY

    I'm really having trouble getting into the new Stevie Wonder album. It's hyper-produced in that Top 40 radio kind of way, which is absolutely and completely unappealing to me. I like a more organic, natural, live sound. And the arrangements in some (well, most) of the songs just further this. Some of the songs are very well-written (i.e. Moon Blue, How Will I Know, My Love Is On Fire, Passionate Raindrops), but I have a lot of trouble getting past the arrangement and production. I'll try to get used to it though. I'm still awaiting the new DF album...

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 22:03:58 ET
    Posted by: Paul Carrack, asdf

    Rajah, re: the weirdness

    Can't Hoops just ban this guy's IP address?

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 21:50:08 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Alkali - Not upset at you or anyone at all here; it's the cancer, the lingering presence of someone who's been trailing me for quite a long time now, someone who has continued to attack me and my closest, my dearest, some one who, when, not if, but when, I discover their ID will pay dearly.

    Vendetta Rajah

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 20:01:17 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    h.w.t. - if you want hyperfinished, Stevie's your man this time out. On detail left unattended - it's amazing he got a natural sound out of it.

    McCracken is a stud though. EMG is largely a songwriting and vocals album. They decided to give it a live party feel without the hyper detail like TvN. As underproduced as TvN is "over" produced, although it;'s weird enough from Slang through EMG over the masterpieces Greenbook, Pixeleen, Lunch with Gina.

    Josey: They are CRISP. Vinnie is masterful with his sly groove over those odd time signatures. Sancious brings a lot of soul. He's why The Wild, the Innocent, and the E Street Shuffle is the Boss album I want to listen to without muchos beers (either for the party or depressing stuff)...and since I don't drink any more for all practical purposes..

    Raj: Check out Stevie's real and keyboard bass lines...

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 19:59:01 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    H.W.T. you're mixing spanish with italian, that would be Spic-alian, it just won't happen, oil and water son.

    L.W.O. & DOC MU: Thank you.
    RAJ: I apologize if you were/are hurt, my gun wasn't aimed at you.


    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 19:28:32 ET
    Posted by: h w t, Five Points

    Another image from GottWhacker Las Goombas del Azul may have overlooked: "the bridges of light." Quo frickin' Vadis? I suggest, it is nothing less than ye olde Information Superhighway, and computing/hacking/CyberWank Inc. The GodWhacker is into 'warez, hear, and hacking/computing may be one of his methods of Regicide.

    But I am not so down with the actual musical content of GW. It's phun, moves, the Becker-blues esta bueno (tho some might miss a Carlton or Wadenius); the end pops and sizzles but sort of a throwaway like too much of EMG.

    Eivets Rednow on Alfie: now that was damn near Beauty, or at least Booty

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 18:02:48 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Jeez, no reply from the Echo/dot being? My email is void, why, why Echo? I can't hurt you over the cyberwaves. You can call me any number of names...all for free.

    Why am I not surprised?

    Oh, yeah, cause cowards never represent.

    BTW, Stevie Wonder's new record is magnificent, get it ASAP.

    White Rajah in a Dangerous Rage

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 16:07:49 ET
    Posted by: Rajah, L.A.

    Echo - Oh, you're back again. Wow, you know what my Italian Grandfather Antonio used to tell me? Your liar, your cheat and your scumbag ALWAYS questions the other guy's motives.

    Grandpa was right, bitch. You have my email. For the thousandth time, come at me you coward or just shut the fuck up.

    Is that clear enough for you?

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 09:27:13 ET
    Posted by: echoes from beyond, the sign post up ahead

    I see the masturbation continues here, don't get any on your I-talian shoes Mr. Vi-to Corlione. I'll do business with you, but the truth is despise your whole fucking masqerade.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 08:03:07 ET
    Posted by: Josey, St. Simons Island

    Doc Mu - St. Augustine In Hell is as groove infectious as any oddtime song ever was!! Sancious, Vinnie, Dominic Miller, and Sting - positively the best lineup he ever assembled - period.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 04:17:47 ET
    Posted by: I Drove The Chrysler, Cat'lic boyo

    Raj, you ain't any more Catholic than me, brother. Don't even want to discuss it, or this post'll be 50 Acts of Contrition, 30 Our Fathers, and 20 Hail Marys long.

    ph, while we're all on the topic, you and everyone else on the board are going to think this is crazy, but I always thought "Dr. Wu" was about this guy who had a long-held religious faith, and belief in divine providence, who deluded himself into thinking that God, i.e., Dr. Wu, "gave" him the girl he was in love with. When it turned out the girl wasn't responding to him, the way he expected from his faith in God/Dr. Wu, our hapless anti-hero cries out in despair to his deity:

    "Can you hear me, Dr. Wu
    Are you really just a shadow of the Man that I once knew
    She is lovely, yes she's sly
    And you're an ordinary guy (refering to our anti-hero's self-epiphany, NOT to Dr. Wu)
    Has she finally got to you (again, refering to our protagonist, not Wu)
    Can you hear me, Dr.?
    Are you with me, Dr.?"

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 03:27:29 ET
    Posted by: Girlfriend, sheep-whacking

    I just l-u-v it when you guys get all literary. Guess that puts me in the camp that digs the lyric interpretation, as opposed to dissecting the music chord for chord.

    Oh, hell, it's all good!

    New Stevie Wonder on the holiday wish list, thanks to the good reviews here.

    Date: Wed, November 02, 2005, 00:53:25 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    I may be overtired, and the basic premise of the idea has been brought up before...but what if GW is GW Bush...and in the crusade against the radical defenders of Allah, GW kills God instead...just a thought.

    Bway Steve. Great to see ya - don't be a stranger.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 23:50:05 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, NJ


    I'm sorry for your loss

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 22:35:19 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Nice, ph, very nice.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 22:20:35 ET
    Posted by: ph, godwhack-a-mole

    I sounds like the Godwhacker thread may be over, but I'm going to beat this to a bloody pulp anyway.
    The interpretation of "Godwhacker" need not be limited to its christian imagery, a god can be anything that a public venerates or idolizes, and the Godwhacker would be whatever attempts to tear down this veneration. For instance, Celebs might be the Gods that the paparazzi godwhack. Politicians are often treated as Gods, but when they are suspected of being corrupt (or at least, more corrupt than everybody else), the Godwhackers come out in full force to impeach or indight or do something else nasty to screw his/her career. Those are the only examples I can think of at this very moment, but it does expand the universality of the song quite a bit. They lovely part of most Steely Dan songs is that you can basically apply them to anything you want without having to try too hard.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 21:56:12 ET
    Posted by: SouthOfHollywood,


    My thoughts and prayers are with you tonight...


    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 21:25:53 ET
    Posted by: IE,

    Another Keith Carlock article.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 20:37:18 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Mu - get that little girl of yours to music school immediately. She nailed it, it took me every damn gizmo I have at my disposal to confirm that it is, indeed, Eb one up from mid C. I rated it some kind of "F."

    Wow, hope for the future...

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 20:06:20 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,

    Raj: My daughter correctly identified THE NOTE Stevie is signing on Moon Blue in 2 sec. E-flat one octave+ above middle C

    Quzzed her favorite songs based on sound - we tracked it down to Walter produced All I Need on Michael Franks' Blue Pacific and St. Augustine in Hell - digs the SAncious organ and Vinne drums...haven't worked on the lyrics, but I know you'd appreciate them:

    If somebody up there likes me
    Somebody up there cares
    Deliver me from evil
    Save me from these wicked snares
    Not into temptation, not to cliffs of fall
    On to revelation, and lesson for us all
    She walked into the room
    On the arm of my best friend
    I knew whatever happened
    Our friendship would end
    Chemical reaction, desire at first sight
    Mystical attraction, turned out all my lights

    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die
    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die

    I don't know if it's pain
    Or pleasure that I seek
    My flesh was all too willing
    My spirit guide was weak
    I was deadly certain
    His thoughts for me weren't kind
    A switchblade in his pocket
    Murder on his mind
    Blessed St. Theresa the whore of Babylon
    Madonna and my mother all rolled into one
    You've got to understand me
    I'm not a piece of wood
    Francis of Assisi
    Could never be this good

    [The less I need the more I get
    Make me chaste but not just yet
    It's a promise or a lie
    I'll repent before I die]

    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die
    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die

    [Spoken] Relax, have a cigar, make yourself at home.
    Hell is full of high court judges, failed saints.
    We've got Cardinals, Archbishops, barristers,
    Certified accountants, music critics,
    They're all here. You're not alone
    You're never alone, not here you're not.
    OK break's over...

    [The less I need the more I get
    Make me chaste but not just yet
    It's a promise or a lie
    I'll repent before I die]

    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die
    The minute I saw her face
    The second I caught her eye
    The minute I touched the flame
    I knew it would never die

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 19:36:01 ET
    Posted by: The Church Lady,

    Exactly, Church Dude. Hey, what's a nice Church Dude like you doing in Blue?

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 18:56:19 ET
    Posted by: Church Dude, on the case

    If Satan is inspiring anybody, it would be the people/institutions Godwhacker is pointing a finger at: Christendom and world religions in general.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 18:15:05 ET
    Posted by: Doc Mu,


    Elegant conciseness. There are no guarantees in this world or beyond. It seems reasonable that GW is conflicted as well where choices of existence are either beyond control or highly morally conflicted. A crusade

    No matter how well meaning - people are flawed, and any group no matter how well meaning is flawed, ESPECIALLY when POWER is involved. Any corporate structure amplifies those flaws. Having said that we've seen recently that snaring Fringe sects can do abhorrentand explosive acts - rincially in both cases the problem is a concentration of power in the hands of too few. The People of the Catholic Church do the best work as far away from the snares of Rome or the Bishopdoms of Boston & other large diocese as possible (South/Central America, Africa).

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 17:58:58 ET
    Posted by: Ann, Bolton, 12 miles from Manchester

    Re-united with my vinyls!!!!! Have decided to bring the album covers back to Borneo and get them framed. Met up with an old friend I've not met for over 30 years, who informed me that an old Hendrix vinyl of his has been valued at over £200 (US$300?)...anyone know if the same would be true for Dan vinyls????

    Corpsy V, glad you enjoyed the Manchester movie. I saw it on DVD a few months ago. Tony Wilson is very much a local character and instrumental in the promotion of many music acts. Interesting choice of Steve Cougan for Tony. It's great to be back here but family commitments prevent me from participating in any musical events...never mind, next visit! Back to Borneo on Saturday!

    Peace to all!


    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 17:57:55 ET
    Posted by: The Church Lady,

    So...we know who inspired this Godwhacker song, don't we?

    Could it have been...S-A-T-A-N?

    Alrighty then...let's dance!

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 17:53:33 ET
    Posted by: s53CdoY0l5RPumc, s53CdoY0l5RPumc

    <a href=></a> - phentermine

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 17:29:52 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    OK, now I'm impressed, you guys rock. You have to admit, even if you find this type of thing boring and stuffy and snooty, Donald and Walter stand on the shoulders of some major dudes and they do their homework. No coincidence that the imagery runs deep and stays with you.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 16:25:21 ET
    Posted by: ^, ^^^

    On Godwhacker: The End of History is the title of the neocon foreign policy Bible by Francis Fukuyama, just so you know.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 16:14:03 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Since we’re acknowledging poetry and it’s dark side
    Let’s not forget Dante Alighieri:

    And I, who of his colour was aware,
    Said: "How shall I come, if thou art afraid,
    Who'rt wont to be a comfort to my fears?"
    And he to me: "The anguish of the people
    Who are below here in my face depicts
    That pity which for terror thou hast taken.
    Let us go on, for the long way impels us."
    Thus he went in, and thus he made me enter
    The foremost circle that surrounds the abyss.

    But like I alluded to in my last posting I tend towards the optimists rather than the others
    I give you Giordano’s “La mamma morta” (death of my mother)
    Here is the pivotal and perfect opportunity for one to despair and drop into it’s pit and yet the writer finds hope and strength:

    Io sono il paradiso! Io son l'oblio!
    Io sono il dio
    che sorva il mondo scende da
    muta gli umani im angioli,
    fa della terra il ciel!
    Io son l'amore!

    Roughly translated:

    I am paradise, I am oblivion
    I am the god who descends from heaven,
    And clothes humanity as angels
    And Makes the earth a paradise
    I am love



    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 14:55:57 ET
    Posted by: ygk, nyc

    I think it was Dana Carvey......

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 14:46:29 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Oh man, you guys are diggin' deep where Dandom dwells.

    Let's not forget Godwhacker's debt to John Milton who in Paradise Lost created one of the most compelling character sketches of Satan ever, you actualy find yourself rooting for the underdog Chief Demon; he's definitely the star of the show and taps into that duality we all carry in us of good in an uncomfortable but inexorable alliance and co-existence with evil and how one is used to feed the other, as above, so below:

    "And out of good still to find means of evil." - Satan

    "Here we may reign secure; and in my choice
    To reign is worth ambition, though in hell:
    Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - Satan

    "A mind not to be chang’d by place or time.
    The mind is its own place, and in itself
    Can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - ???

    I forget which character says that last one but it's brilliant nonetheless.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 13:19:50 ET
    Posted by: h w t,

    However ironic and hip Fagen's lyrics are in Godwhacker, I sense that he sympathizes with his "character", and the intent is not to ridicule the Godwhacker's quest to find the Almighty, but to sort of applaud GW's heroic desire to bring "God" to Justice, so to speak, for all the hypocrisy and misery "He" both created and allowed. Of course it may not be "God" who is being investigated (since GW doubts that He in fact exists), but the "God-concept" which GW is tracking, and thus the lyrics are not criticizing skeptics or atheists, but attacking hysterical theists who do believe in the existence of a Sky-Boss--whether Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jewish--who dictates all our affairs from above and doesn't mind throwing out hurricanes or tsunamis or wars to his human-subjects. Thus GW is not merely skeptic-detective, but Prometheus-like, and related not only to Blake but perhaps to Shelley, another great precursor of countercultural literature.

    from opening lines to Prometheus Unbound


    "Monarch of Gods and Dæmons, and all Spirits
    But One, who throng those bright and rolling worlds
    Which Thou and I alone of living things
    Behold with sleepless eyes! regard this Earth
    Made multitudinous with thy slaves, whom thou
    Requitest for knee-worship, prayer, and praise,
    And toil, and hecatombs of broken hearts,
    With fear and self-contempt and barren hope.
    Whilst me, who am thy foe, eyeless in hate....."

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 12:28:33 ET
    Posted by: georgeL, travelin' man

    Hoops! Thanks for the sign-on instructions. And looking forward to the Fagen album. I count on your site for the real deal info.
    I'm not a big post-er, but this site is the best for inside news on SD. Much appreciated.

    As you know, I follow all things Dan-ish. I did check out that Sidney CD

    Very pleasently surprised - and worth checking out if you're a Carlock fan. Anyone know anything more about Sidney than what you can read on cdbaby? I'm an indie collector....any information would be appreciated.

    Thanks Hoops!

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 11:17:57 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    My sincerest condolensces on your loss, EB.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 10:36:16 ET
    Posted by: Little Wild One, Day of the Dead

    Very profound post, Alkali. Which is why I love Steely Dan...there's a little something for everyone who likes to think.

    Thinking of our friend, Ed Beatty today, on the loss of his father. When we all lost Cornelius Bumpus, Pam posted this and it stuck with me: "After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley.

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 10:33:22 ET
    Posted by: Rajah,

    Lord, Hoops is gonna kill me for this but I'll get it off my chest and then shut the fuck up.

    I'm not bashing Catholicism cause it's fashionable, Alkali, I've been bashing it for decades since I spent no less than 19 years, boy and man, under their tutalege, my people have been Catholics for literally thousands of years. Not that I'm overly proud of it but you can't GET anymore Catholic than the guy at the other end of this here keyboard. I know its history, its rituals and its language like I know my own name which if you've ever seen my own name is no small challenge. And during my time with the Jesuits I met dozens and dozens of wonderful, brilliant, caring and creative men of contemplation and of action. Crazy characters like you wouldn't believe and the best of them, the very best of them, questioned their beliefs every blessed day and exhorted their charges to do the same. Because faith is not a static thing, you can't pick one and stick it in the deep freeze or, like the rotisserie chicken baker thingy on TV, set it and forget it. And what I came away with from all those years is that a life of unexamined beliefs is not worth living. If someone were to ask me what I stand for, I wouldn't have an answer cause I don't know, all I could do was show them my life so far. Or what I can recall of it anyway. And that's the human condition, doubt, strength, righteousness, fear, cruelty, kindness All of it.

    Catholicism was the first corporation. It was man made and therefore flawed from the start and has been the direct cause of untold numbers of deaths and a myriad of evils which are so very evident to this day. It also lifted an entire world out of the shadow of a primative set of mores where life was cheap, even cheaper than it is now and where killing somebody wasn't much more than an occasional run of the mill activity. But hey, we're humans, good and evil is our thing, it's what we do. We are creatures of hypocrisy.

    But I remain on the case,
    Deeply Conflicted Rajah of Erase

    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 09:44:33 ET
    Posted by: Alkali, NYC

    Very minor Dan moment: someone in the office is an avid Bill “no spin” O’reilly fan.
    This morning he had it turned on discussing Bushes new potential judicial appointee
    “Do it again” could be heard in the back ground.
    O’reilly spinnin’ Dan. Who woulda thunk it.
    (God, this kid is a great worker but crankin’ O’reilly way too early in the morning is a bit much, I may have to whack him!)

    Anyway, since there seems to be a lot of ‘Godwhacker’ dissection going on…
    Thought I’d offer up my scalpel:

    ‘In the beginning’ god created the heavens, earth and man.
    Man became discontent with godly obedience turned from him and
    ‘Cursed his name’ in search of another to believe in, putting a ‘bounty on his face’ as reward for dissent.
    Daddy and Poppie, by the way, are titles for father or god.
    We know the boys have a penchant for eastern religions and it obviously serves them well here.
    “Seven heaven worlds” is the Hindu realms of outer worldly reincarnation.
    When the worlds are spun out of nothingness, the 7 inside creates 7 outside—hence there being seven degrees of Maya, 7 realms of existence, each of which is sevenfold again.
    With the help of “Red foot” (Satan) and “angel girls” (woman) {woman was the first to ally with Satan in the garden} the “Whackers” are the destroyers of religion.
    “The stars bleed out” is a reference of course to Heidegger/Sartre and that Existentialist mystery/movement.
    “Bridges of light” is a common religious description of passing into the after life.
    “We sniff you big tiger in the forest of the night” Wordsworthian/Blake English romantic movement and dissention from organized religion (tyger/tyger)
    “Rajahs of erase” white Rajahs were the protectors of Sarawak for a century; again the eastern and Indian theme.
    “You better step back son…” the rejection of Christ and the ultimate acceptance of man as spiritual leader.

    The interesting and important thing to remember and to come away with from this song is that:
    1) Turning away from religion does not guarantee fulfillment.
    2) Maintaining religion does not guarantee fulfillment.
    3) Choosing the any philosophy does not guarantee fulfillment.

    Ultimately it does come down to choosing the right/correct philosophy; it’s already been said here on the blue of that distaste/hatred for religion especially Christianity and more specifically Roman Catholicism just because it happens to be fashionable to bash this denomination lately.
    But, you’ll not here these same people bashing other “religions”. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.
    There are about an equal number of evil religious, anti-religious and non religious leaders throughout history, here are just a few:
    Pope John Xll, Pompey, Hannibal, Stalin, Muhammad, Mussolini, Hitler, Khomeini, Hussein etc.
    Any of these ring a bell?
    As for philosophers, you have very influential and yet unreasonable leaders as well:
    Plato, Marx, Kant, Sartre etc.
    But, you also have the great ones:
    Aristotle, Aquinas, Locke, Rand.

    Not to get too far away from the subject “Godwhacker” the song to me is just a search and changing of the guard, not necessarily a good change.


    Date: Tues, November 01, 2005, 00:05:52 ET
    Posted by: bwaySteve, been there, done that

    I STILL maintain that Godwhacker is an East Indian Mythological epic.
    I swear I saw the whole story illuminated on a calendar next to the cash register in one of those teeny Indian restaurants below street level on Sixth in the East Village.
    When I retire I will have the time to search the Upanishads and retrieve the story for you all.I hope you are all alive when I retire.The way things are going that's highly unlikely.

    Any God that can be whacked is not really a god at all.It's a little weenie mythological god that goes on Power Ranger adventures with goofy angels and jacked up mortals with helmets and six-pack abs.


    OCTOBER 2005 BlueBook Entries.

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