Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 22:57:36 ET
Posted by: hoops, chicago

David Lingham--WELCOME TO THE BLUE BOOK, MY virtual living room for Steely Dan chat rooms. I'm your host and I pay the rent!! I am glad you stopped by and brought up the topic of Horace Silver's "Song for the My Father" and similarities.

I'd like to thank you sending you copy of a great live CD that features my favorite version of "Song for my Father," as well as two versions of Horace Silver's "African Queen" which somehow goes with it (see below). Certainly, it is a basic question to some but it's really great when people bring up a recurring topic 1) there always is someone else who doesn't know and 2) more importantly, for those of us who DO know it serves the great purpose of bringing up the topic for further discussion. SO THANK YOU!

As someone else just kindly posted, "Song For My Father" definitely seems to be an inspiration for the intro to "Rikki." But I don't ever think I have seen Becker or Fagen officially acknowledge that. I mean I'm sure it's true, but I wonder what they have to say about it. Additionally, this version of Silver's "African Queen" I have reminds me in some ways of the title track on "Pretzel Logic." Is it in influence? I don't know, and I don't think anyone has agreed--or disagreed--with me.

One cool report I heard was how Horace Silver was in the audience at an L.A.-area Steely Dan area show a couple of months ago. I've heard that Brubeck has never seen SD, but I don't know how true that is.

Again, David, welcome and there are no such things as "dumb" questions. What's more, I'm very grateful you brought this topic up. Finally, if anyone ever gives you a hard time, please ignore them and do not post any response to them. "Ignore idiots and assholes and don't reply to their posts" is the numero uno rule.

Thanks, David and others--looking forward to more discussion of "Song for My Father" and the other topics tangentially mentioned or suggested above.

Also, I DID see "Bad Santa" this weekend. It's great and somewhere on the comedy spectrum between "Something About Mary" and "Steely Dan Confessions," but closer to closer to the latter. A must-see for SD fans, if you ask me.

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 16:37:58 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, Times ( overcrowded) Sq

Here's how I look at it : Peter Q , the Raj and others know this shit so I don't have to. I have never been so secure in my ignorance knowing that if I actually had a question on any of these matters , it would be answered in a most authoritative way and probably before sundown.This is very important for the enjoyment of a band that is as challenging to the left brain as Steely Dan is.
For me , the dilemma is allowing my spirit to be so deeply moved without undue sentimentality.Therapy has helped me with that.

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 15:53:11 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

I agree with everyone. No pillorying intended. Welcome indeed, and I promise not to mention J Wilkinson (well, never again anyway).

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 14:11:38 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I agree with Jaydee.

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 13:55:24 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

David Lingham - if you ever get a copy of Cannonball Adderly's Jive Samba, the version with Zawinul on keyboards, you'll hear another familiar riff from SD (or vice versa).

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 13:09:17 ET
Posted by: Rajah , L.A.

David - Have we ever. Go to - http://home.earthlink.net/~oleander1/
and have a great time.

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 12:10:53 ET
Posted by: Newbie, HI

Anyone know of a music download site other than Kazaa?
One which doesn't fill your computer with porn crap, etc. ?

I can't believe there isn't a greater grassroots backlash by parents against this outrageous Kazaa thing! Then they have the nerve to place a program within it which deletes the uninstall file so you have to go through hell to rid your system of this Kazaacrap...

Any help would be appreciated.

Aloha,

Newbie

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 12:02:37 ET
Posted by: David Lingham, Cardiff Wales UK

I've recently caught up with some early 60's Blue Note jazz recordings. Has anyone noticed a similarity between the opening bass line on "Song for my Father" by Horace Silver and Rikky don't loose that number?

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 08:50:47 ET
Posted by: Edgar Bronfman, Jr., $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you think I'm not going to spin this thing back out to the public markets after they heal, I have a run down studio to sell you(run down by me)!!!!

Wake up and smell the Turkey!

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 08:49:25 ET
Posted by: Josey, St. Simons island

If in fact Britney is somehow tangentially Dan, I don't want to know about it! I'm not emotionally equipped to deal with that.

Date: Sun, November 30, 2003, 05:51:47 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

I'm sure even Britney is tangentially Dan, probably at only two degrees (was that really Victor Feldman on 'Hit Me Baby...'?).

I like the way these people link up - esp my particular paragons Dan, Yellowjackets, Sting and Uncle Frank (trying to think of a 'Tubes' connection but can't). Very postmodern I suppose. Sting covers a FZ song on a blank live CD I got from an EMI employee - not sure of its provenance but an excellent recording.

Incidentally, does 'tosspot' mean something different in US or are you just naturally self-deprecating?

Date: Sat, November 29, 2003, 13:49:54 ET
Posted by: tosspot, SF Bay Area

Tangentially Dan Related: So Vinnie played drums on Negative Girl,
worked for Sting and FZ. Much like that (mercifully) passe "six
degrees ... " movie game, I guess that makes Sting and FZ tangentially
Dan. Anyways, anyone else ever checked out the performance by
Sting on FZ's "Broadway the Hard Way"? A one-time only event
caught live on FZ's 1988 tour, which had a huge horn section.

Date: Sat, November 29, 2003, 13:44:18 ET
Posted by: tosspot, SF Bay Area

Date: Fri, November 28, 2003, 14:41:07 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Goodness, Southie, she touched my cold cold heart.

Date: Fri, November 28, 2003, 14:06:13 ET
Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, OTC

Rajah...The tune I think you are recalling from the RLJ show is "Deep Space" from the Magazine album, circa 1984...She delivered several rounds of those emotional mortar blasts in the middle segment of that show, didn't she...SOH

Date: Fri, November 28, 2003, 10:51:13 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it too

KC ; I also at the grindstone ... but off home soon

Date: Fri, November 28, 2003, 10:50:30 ET
Posted by: nyc, nyc

I think i spotted walt weiskopf on the Harry Connick special last nite

Date: Fri, November 28, 2003, 10:21:20 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @f@#$ing work

Am I the only sorry sap at work today?

Help!

KC

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 23:07:22 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, Glycemic Shock

Is " Kind of like the opposite of an aerial view" what you would get if an amoeba took your picture ?

This is how I get when I eat a lot of carbs.

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 19:30:24 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Tangentially Dan: While flipping channels last night we came across a fellow with an upright bass singing clever, sardonic song about Dizzy Gillespie and I said to my wife "that must be Jay Leonhart." Of course, it was. I'd heard his stuff on jazz and public radio before, especially one called "My Attorney Bernie," so I recognized his voice and style. We watched the rest (it was on PBS) and it was very entertaining. He's an excellent musical storyteller. Apparently it's a one-man show he does called The Bass Lesson and there is a web site, www.thebasslesson.com. Check it out.

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 17:47:43 ET
Posted by: Josey, my soon-to-be-ex-inlaws

Raj, that's it exactly! For me personally, until Fox came along, I didn't realize how liberal the major network news organizations were. And I don't say that so much as a salute to Fox. My leanings are best represented by the Libertarian party, which basically means I have no representation. I watch Fox news, but I also watch Rather, Lehrer (who is about as close to unbiased as you can find)Brokaw, etc. Then it's a process of filtering out the shit. Talk about a filter! Hope you and all the other loyal Danfans have the best of holidays! May Christmas bring everyone news of the Steely Dan tour live on DVD! A boy can dream can't he?

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 14:44:42 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

The DAN FAN E-NOVEL is on the way!

Being the fictional chronicles of a legion of Steely Dan fans in all their wondrous variety. Some are normal human beings; some are not.

This remarkable journal of the human condition follows these fans through thick and thin as they search for the perfect groove, the meaning of existence, love in all forms from the Platonic to the Romantic, or maybe just a good steak.

From the streets of Dickens' London to the gritty blues bar Rosa's Lounge in Chicago to the beautiful beaches of Hawaii, you the reader will share in the stupendous rainbow of human emotions as our courageous fans muster forth!

Blue Book readers have met some of these fans, such as:

HUBERT
KATHRYN STINEY
TINA THE SPROUT
MEAL REVIEWER

and some are new, like:

PROFESSOR ART CRIMI
THE SCAVENGER
CARLOTTA DE MONTEREY
PETER Q

and many more!

Chapters soon to be available include:

1. IN which Peter Q and The Scavenger meet the Sick Fruity Bitches;

2. IN which we we observe how Professor Art Crimi gets Meal Reviewer a job as a DJ at the college radio station;

3. IN which it is seen how Peter Q's used car lot is used once a year for a "You in your Lark, you're a mark, you're a screamer" meditiative event.

And much more!

If interested in a free one page sample, please email. Thank you!

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 14:35:48 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Josey - I don't think you can these days. Maybe we never could, maybe that was just an illusion all along. I remember never being able to figure out if Walter Cronkite was a Republican or Democrat which should be Rule #1 of any journalist, no? Now, when I pick up the NY or LA Times, CNN or Fox or the Washington Post, I know exactly which side of the aisle they're on. And I think that's a shame. If you ever want to get really riled up, go online and check Le Monde (Paris) or Pravda (Moscow). God, the lies, the awful lies.

Which is why, IMHO, it's so important to stay independent of the Party system. The truth is out there somewhere and, just like good music, you gotta search for it or they're gonna package boolshit and sell it to you as the way and the light.

When Donald opened up the tour down in Costa Mesa he gave a little salutation which I thought really showed the class of that man. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well here we are in a new Century, we thought the last one was bad with all that went on, but now it makes you kinda nostalgic for the old days." He didn't ram an ideology down your throat. I did not take that as a partisan statement of any kind, he left you to think about it on your own. And he was addressing our condition as a people, a nation, a world. That man is da shizz.

OK, off to the kids' for Turkey Day. I wish you all peace, loyal ones. Nuzzles to all.

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 13:18:25 ET
Posted by: Josey, St. Simons island

Raj, where can you go these days to get an unbiased view of the news? Hell Dan Rather's so transparently liberal he wets the fuckin bed! Jennings may be worse.

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 11:54:21 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Hey SOH - Maybe you can tell me what the heck that great tune Rickie did solo at the electric piano was, you know, the one she received the standing "O" on from the butt-tight LA crowd. The tone poem thing with the lyric, "Please don't hit me anymore, please don't hit me anymore, please don't yell at me anymore." Jeez, what an emotional mortar blast that was, I don't think I'll ever forget her body language when she just stopped playing and started wailed it out, that woman poured her heart out for everyone to see on that one. That was a gift, baby.

Southie, let's get together with Steeve-boy sometime and crawl like vipers through these urban streets and things of that nature.

Date: Thurs, November 27, 2003, 03:55:56 ET
Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Coolsville

Regardless of the onstage political banter (which I happen to side with, FWIW) the RLJ show at the Wilshire was as close to live perfection as I have ever witnessed...'Cept for Roseland Saturday Night, natch...Sorry I missed you, Rajah...Happy Bird Stuffing...SOH

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 22:29:06 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Back in the day we used to play "Steely Dan Scrabble" with less ardor, but after 2VN some of the players got a little more whacky than most psychologists would consider healthy. Have you ever played "Steely Dan Scrabble"? Anywhere from six to twelve players is best. Everyone gets two slips of paper and writes a lyric from a song, or something obviously derived from a lyric, on each slip. All the slips go into a hat, then each person picks two slips from the hat. You then have to engage in behavior that combines your two lyrics. For example, I once got "You swear and kick and beg us," and "Break out the hats and hooters." So I put on a stupid New Year's Eve party hat, went down in the street, kicked a complete stranger in the shin, and blew my hooter.
At the first game I attended after 2VN was released, Tina The Sprout got "Make the traffic interesting" and "A bunker filled with sand." Now, maybe we should have known that Tina was on Haldol before we let her get creative with this, but she rented a Pink Cadillac from a movie prop rental company and drove it onto the Brooklyn Bridge at the height of the morning rush hour. She brought the car to a stop right in the middle of the bridge, and of course when she got out of the car in the particular condition she had chosen, everybody looked. Everybody looked even more when, having left the car running, she plugged in a certain appliance with an extension cord and, on the span of the Brooklyn Bridge with thousands of cars all around her...

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 17:10:35 ET
Posted by: Honeybun, Scotland

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!.....
.....Enjoy the holiday.

Love, Honeybun

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 16:07:18 ET
Posted by: arlean, pittsburgh

That's the song "Second Chance" and yes, she does say that. On World Cafe she talked about how everyone was listening to that album when she was in college and that it was a nod to Walter.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 15:09:34 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Bill - speaking of "Countdown to Ecstasy" and maybe some Rickie fans can help us here, there was one tune last night, I gather an older one, where each verse ends with the line, "countdown to ecstasy" at least that's what it sounded like (Rickie's lyric is hard to decipher sometimes).

RCray - she was preaching to the choir last night, no doubt, she and the pony-tailed and clog-wearin' crowd were definitely on the same page. Oh, she also said, "that Fox News channel...how can that even be on, but don't worry, we'll get rid of that." I agree FoxNews is an abomination of bias and intolerance, but it seems the runaway liberals aren't very tolerant themselves these days; hey, it's all the politics of hate as far as I can see. Still, she's entitled. She did give her heart out last night onstage, I can admire that. The question arises if the performance stage where people of different political stripes have paid money to hear you play is the proper forum for your politics. I say let the songs do the talking.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 14:38:37 ET
Posted by: bill, pgh

The mini-tuba was probably a baritone horn.

Rickie Lee came through town here recently too but I had to miss the show. She always employs top-notch sidemen, just like SD.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 14:36:54 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

The Brian Auger version of Compared to What is the one I remember, too.

When Countdown to Ecstacy came out, the local "progressive" radio station was playing Your Gold Teeth (I) and an Auger tune called Happiness is Just Around The Bend, both of which are driven by a very similar electic-piano vamp riff. (I believe the music theory types would call it a II-V progression, very popular in its day - variations show up in Traffic's Low Spark, Carole King's It's Too Late and countless Santana tunes, among other places). I remember running right out to buy both LPs. Also got my Wurlitzer electric piano around the same time and attempted (unsucessfully) to learn both songs. What'dya expect for a high school kid?

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 14:29:09 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Leo - funny you should say that, no, she did not, but my Rickie friends were hoping to hear it. Her version of it is, well, her version, not my cup of tea either. But Dan influences were heard all evening, she has these two horn players who, together with the guy playing harmonica, manage to evoke that very smoky feel of songs like Babylon Sisters or Almost Gothic. Clarinet, trumpet and the harp, all really just barely touching the notes, which, together with the guy playing double bass and a very subtle drummer was my favorite configuration. The guy on trumpet was a wonder: he also played violin, mandolin, and a thing that looks like a very very small tuba, never seen one of those, dunno what it is. Other guy played all the woodwinds. The guy on harmonica looked like the second coming of Victor Feldman, he slid over to vibes, bongos and even picked up a guitar and scratched out little supporting licks. Little bits here, little bits there, the guy was tasty. Oh, and no Chuck E.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 14:22:41 ET
Posted by: Rcray, nyc

C'mon Rickie. Who wants to hear you talking about politics?? It's such an easy target these days. Real profound.

Until she goes out and runs for office she can keep her lazy, uninsipired music/political activism to herself. Can't we all just get along and make music?? No Rickie, some of us have REAL careers and are happy with our lives.

The old Republicans suck rhetoric is getting old, fast. It's been done too many times. I bet she cares about global warming as well. What a joke.

I am a libertarian so she would probably vomit if she knew what I stood for...no thanks Rickie.

Chuck E.'s in Love is still the best for my money...beyond that she needs to check her premise and shut her pie hole.

Happy Thanksgiving Rickie Lee!!!

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 13:14:24 ET
Posted by: Josey, St. Simons island

Happy Thanksgiving from the Ga. coast!

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 12:49:49 ET
Posted by: hoops, chicago

Been reading a couple of movie reviews of "Bad Santa" and it sounds like a movie in the spirit of Steely Dan--darkly funny. I'm planning to see it this weekend and hope you get a chance.

Here's one review that does a pretty good job of summarizing the movie:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-santa26f.html

American Dan Fans, have a great Thanksgiving.

jim

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 12:10:33 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

I saw Rickie Lee Jones at the packed Wilshire Theatre last night. Went with a couple of big Rickie fans. Eight pieces and her, she sounded great, wonderful spirit this woman has. The usual chilly LA crowd was very demonstrative, maybe a bit of Holiday spirit. She played Flying Cowboys from the album WB produced and, not surprisingly, it was one of the tastier grooves of the night. Her between song patter was irresistable, such a genuine person, very political, she said something like, "we're a strong people(Americans) and we need to take our country back." Then she did Ugly Man (about Dubya)and Tell Somebody (the Patriot Act song). Very emotional singer, she bleeds for you, really draws you in. Her pal Syd Straw came up to join her on a duet of Bowie's "Rebel Rebel" which the crowd just ate up. Straw just came up from the audience with her coat and purse which Rickie helped her with. Warm and fuzzy, you could tell they were indeed friends. Very sweet and funny when they resolved the chorus at "hot tramp, I love you so." The crowd she likee very much.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 11:14:11 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, packing my things to go so far from here, goodbye dear

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Off to enjoy my mini-vacation at the shore.
G

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 09:21:14 ET
Posted by: Rcray, nyc

I am not up to speed on Reprise's roster however I do believe that a more hands on approach would bode well for Warner et al. Moreover, the Radio "Clear Channel" still is the strongest force with regards to airplay so maybe bronfman has other ideas and maybe they will be focused on making albums vs. just making a hit single.

Steve Winwood is one example. He is on the String Cheese incident's label SCI Fidelity. That allows him more autonomy with respect to making an album vs. just selling out.

I truly believe this is a great step for the music biz and others should follow.

What's being done with Jimi Hendrix is laughable. They are releasing/ rereleasing/ repackaging all kinds of garbage with no concern for sound quality and only the $$ in mind. If you go to a record store he has like 50 things you can buy and if you are new to his music it's hard to find where to start.

Date: Wed, November 26, 2003, 04:02:45 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @work

The Skunster in profile...

http://guitar.about.com/library/weekly/aa061801a.htm

Some nice links to related stuff to ... although I can't get the Reelin' Guitar Lesson one to work DOH !

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 22:14:52 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Kathryn was twenty when her father died; he must have been right around the same age as Donald Fagen. For as long as she could remember she would wake up in the middle of the night to the far off sound of music, and she would go downstairs to her father's study and find him there, gently weeping, listening to a song like The Caves of Altamira or Deacon Blues. Her father would be staring out the window at the mountainside; sometimes silver moonlight would slice into the room like a dagger and illuminate his whole body, making him look like a ghost. He seemed to be trying to stare into the past, and he would sob gently. When he became aware of Kathryn's presence he would beckon her and rub his hand through her hair, giving her a weak smile and a fatherly hug, a single big fat tear sliding off his cheek. Even before Kathryn knew the truth for sure she was able to intuit it - he had once listened to those songs with a lady, a lady who was not her mother, and in the natural course of life he had lost her somehow.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 17:29:29 ET
Posted by: Hank Silvers,

Interesting info about Tangerine Puppets -- now, can anyone find anything about bands DF was in during *his* high school years?

The version of "Compared to What" I'm most familiar with is by Brian Auger from the early 70's. The album came out about the same time as Can't Buy a Thrill and I still like 'em both. Can't say that for many 30-year-old rock releases.

This might be the original version of "Book of Lies", author Aliester Crowley:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib333.html

Thanks, Mu, for the info on the gnarly downside on Atkins. My wife used to (emphasis on used to) work for the publisher that put out South Beach Diet. It looked a lot like a thinly disguised version of Atkins, and I said the hell with them both. Not that I can't stand to lose weight, but there's got to be a healthier way than that.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 17:18:49 ET
Posted by: n,

Capitol sounds about right. (There again, I'm no expert myself.) Reprise was basically home for Frank's pals (Sammy, Dino, Trini Lopez) and their kids (Nancy Sinatra, Dino Desi & Billy) until he sold it to Warners in 1967. That's when all the rock acts started getting signed: Hendrix and West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band initially, then Zappa, Tull and Joni Mitchell the following year. Great label in its day.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 16:43:24 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Norm - oops, so much for my prohibitive knowledge of Sinatra. Capitol, right?

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 16:35:03 ET
Posted by: norm,

Rajah - Sinatra's the one who started Reprise. 1960/61, I think it was, and he was well over his career slump by then.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 16:18:33 ET
Posted by: Josey, St. Simons island

I'm not sure if I meant to imply that I thought Sting's artistic capability has failed. I'm just not so into the softer side of Sting - which is what I think he's given us lately. Hell I even like his new cd. But I thought the best he ever sounded was when it was just him, Vinnie, David Sacious, and Dominic Miller. I saw that band play live a couple of times and they flat rocked! Again, "rocked" isn't exactly a term I've found appropriate with Sting in some years.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 16:14:53 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

RCray - your post gives me hope. I can't help but think of sports teams owned by a hugh conglomerate, Disney, Fox, as opposed to a committed private owner or family run biz. Do you think the current roster of artists would have to be thinned out? Reprise took a huge chance on Sinatra in the early 50s, he was kinda banged up personally and vocally, and was rewarded 10 times over for it. I wonder if they'll be similar risk-takers over at EMI?

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 15:34:22 ET
Posted by: Rcray, nyc

If the Warner purchase is in fact for the right reasons, Bronfman will run the company as a private enterprise, per his press release and he will be more "independent" thinking with regards to artists.

One thing the music biz can't do is take too many chances because investors want earnings and they look at companies on a quarterly basis. That being said, Bronfman said with the company going private he can have a longer term outlook and run the company like reprise was run when Sinatra started. Atlantic records was started by Ertegun and with that same premise.

Let's hope he keeps his word. I believe him because taking a company from public to private erases the control from $$ to artistic development. One small step....but well worth it.

Rcray

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 14:33:21 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Jaydee.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 14:29:18 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Nabokov.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 14:27:59 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Hey, Cray - Nabakov's humor is so dark in Lolita, you just know that awful things are going to happen, there's a sense of impending doom. Then when the bad stuff happens, it's even worse than you imagined. If you were to just open up to a page(early on) in Lolita, yes, there may be hilarious highjinks occurring. When you step back and take the novel in its entirety into view, it's anything but.

Q's snippet seems more light-hearted, I dunno.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 14:23:27 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

More random bits encountered on line, this time from a roadies' glossary:

"Book of Lies" Slang: A tour itinerary, which are notorious for being incorrect/out of date

http://www.roadie.net/glossary.htm

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 14:00:30 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

Mint Jam - yes, a great live recording. Just realised only Yellowjackets CD I don't have is 'Shades', the one with the Donald Fagen title song - this will be rectified. YJ's new Christmas album also looks interesting - 'God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen' and all !

Rajah - are you suggesting Nabokov had no sense of humour? 'Lolita' is hilarious (Peter Sellers was the perfect Quilty), and I'm sure he would have creased up at Sting rhyming his name with 'cough'.

Don't agree that Sting's artistic capability has faded, however - still a major talent in my opinion.

Also hope RCray IS the RCray - great stuff.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 13:51:32 ET
Posted by: rcray, nyc

Maybe reprise is waiting for this Edgar Bronfman thing to come to fruition before they really start considering a "LIVE" Dan release.

Regards,

rcray.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 12:44:28 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Peter - You literally made me laugh out loud. It really snuck up on me. When can we get our hands on a lengthier sample? Vladamir Nabakov with a sense of humor. Please tell me Meali is in there somewhere in some incarnation. You go boyfriend.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 12:23:14 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

Rcray - Are you really THE Robert Cray from The Robert Cray Band?


KC

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 11:52:54 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

PETER Q:
Can you email me a page of that novel? Are you seriously writing this? I'd like to play myself when the movie comes 'round!

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 11:38:53 ET
Posted by: rcray, nyc

It would be nice if the dan would release a little holiday present for the greater glory of the dandom.


..something with "live at Roseland" or "Live in Las Vegas", would be nice.

C'mon guys it's the holidays!!!!

It makes a good present.

Happy Holidays,


Robert Cray. Lead singer of The Robert Cray band.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 11:10:26 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, Playroom

Aloha all shoppers ~

Happy Turkey Day to all Danizens.

On the thread of good music to take in over the holiday, I highly recommend the 2003 release by The Peter Malick Group featuring Norah Jones. The album is entitled "New York City" (a title us Dan fans must surely like)-- and it is loaded with some great in-the-pocket tracks with Senor Malick on guitar and Ms. Jones with her tasty bluesy vocal stylings. She knows how to "caress" a tune. "Deceptively Yours" is fantastic and Ms. Jones' turn on the Dylan classic "Heart of Mine" is quite good. Enjoy.

Don't eat too much of the bird -- could be DAN-gerous!

Lonnie

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 09:33:28 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Laina, have a safe trip, my friend!

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 08:05:26 ET
Posted by: bassicinstinct, UK

Jaydee:

Point well made (and taken!!).

Josey:

Re: Mint Jam/Yellowjackets

Couldn`t agree more. Among the best live albums ever IMHO.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 07:31:37 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

While we're carrying on about Jimmy Haslip, any of you guys heard the Yellowjackets' Mint Jam? It's an outstanding double live cd. Highly recommended if you're into Yellowjackets!

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 07:27:17 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Peter Q: that is killing me! I don't generally find anything that damn funny at 7:15 in the morning.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 07:09:06 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

bassicinstinct : no defence necessary - it's just another case of the written word's failure to communicate body language.

My upper case 'DID' was intended to imply a kind of raised eyebrows well-how-about-that sort of thing, rather than any triumphant gainsaying of any previous post.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 07:07:48 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

One of the dubious claims my dry cleaner Hubert makes is that any time he hears a Steely Dan tune his body immediately makes an unwilled, uncontrollable foray into sexual excitement. He has been embarrassed quite a few times by this, not the least of which was once at a party for his young neice. It was a tame affair, a barbecue on a pleasant summer day. The yard was filled with about twenty ten year old girls playing pin the tail on the donkey. Hubert was supervising the game when the Muzak station, heretofore having played "soft hits" artists like James Taylor and Carly Simon, suddenly played "Almost Gothic." Hubert watched in horror as the activity in his denim shorts became alarmingly noticeable. Several of the moms in attendance, shocked at what they thought was a brazen display of warped pervesity, led their young girls to safety, on the other side of the yard, away from this clean shaven suburban Aqualung.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 06:14:19 ET
Posted by: bassicinstinct, UK

Jaydee:

In my own defence, I had kind of assumed that we were talking about Steely Dan RECORDINGS that Jimmy Haslip had appeared on rather than a single LIVE appearance in Rotterdam??!!??!!

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 02:21:50 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Laina - may choirs of angels sing you to your rest and keep you until your safe return.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 02:20:07 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

Just had a reply from Jimmy Haslip after (on PQ's advice) emailing his website re SD and Yellowjackets connections.

He confirms 'Century's End' and DF's song 'Shades', and DID play on Hey 19 but only at the Rotterdam show that Hoops referred to. Also mentions various other sessions with Donald and/or Walter such as Rosie Vela and Diana Ross. He also says Bob Mintzer played on Kamakiriad, but that's not credited on my copy so maybe he didn't make the cut.

Jimmy says he's 'a big fan of their music and honored to have worked with them'. Nice guy.

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 02:12:22 ET
Posted by: Laina, Cincinnati-bound

Hey folks!! I am leaving town in the morning, but I just wanted to wish you all a restful and fun November break! Travel safely wherever you're going and take care! And pray that I make it to LAX safely! (I'm driving to LA for the first time, a 3-4 hr drive)

*going to bed*

Lainalove

Date: Tues, November 25, 2003, 00:12:45 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu ,

Bill (PA): The source appears to be Richard Adler:

"I was in a band from 1965 to 1969. I then went on to work for The Beatles. When The Beatles broke up I went out on the road as road manager to a number of bands. I am really enjoying your book. I have had so many of the same situations happen to me. We ofcourse worked a lot of the same venues. I was in a band from 1965 to 1968 called the Tangerine Puppets. You may be a little young to remember us. Well everyone in the band went on to become famous and I went into the music business. after the road I became a concert promoter, agent, record producer and manager. My band broke up when I left for college. Each member did alright for himself. Tommy and John formed The Ramones, Walter Becker formed Steely Dan, Randy California formed Spirit.

Richard Adler"

a corroborating source from the http://www.roadie.net/comment9.htm URL

There appeared to have been a critical mass of musicians in Queens including Joe Walsh and Waddy Wachtel as well as Ramones, Walter, and Randy Wolf (California)...fitting indeed - lol, when I was 20 I thought that Walter and The Ramones were the coolest people on the planet - how little did I know!!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 23:52:20 ET
Posted by: Lutz, SF

Gadd Gang: thanks folks, for bringing back the memories. For some reason the records almost seemed to be a little too low key, the live shows were great. I remember one 80's show on a party boat out of South Str. Seaport, NY. My favorites in the band are Ronnie Cuber and Cornell (not cousin) Dupree, what’s he up to these days? He is as sharp as a knife and so soulful. Gadd was in rough shape that night, played good- although one could sense that it was more routine than inspiration. For me,one of hist best recordings was on ‘Smoking in the Pit’ , with Steps, (M.Brecker and D.Grolnick) live in Tokyo.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 23:47:48 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Josey. Indeed, he lost the magic, but not the celebrity after Ten Summoner's Tales.

Walter with Johnny and Tommy Ramone!!? My head is spinning...Hey, if ya turn Junkie Girl up to "78" it does sound like a Ramones song!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 23:37:09 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Just ran across this nugget on a site devoted to the band Spirit:

TANGERINE PUPPETS (1966)
While living in Forest Hills on Long Island, Randy (California) played for a short period of time in this group. Other members of the band included Walter Becker (STEELY DAN), John Cummings (Johnny Ramone of THE RAMONES), Tommy Erdelyi (Tommy Ramone of THE RAMONES). Walter Becker has claimed that Randy taught him a lot about playing guitar. It is not certain that everybody was in the same lineup of this band at the same time. The band lasted (without Randy) until the summer of 1967.

http://www.bostream.nu/johanb/spirit/spirit_tree.html

I knew that Walter cited Randy California as an early guitar tutor/influence but didn't know anything about this band.

Who'da thunk it - a connection between SD and the Ramones!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 23:03:11 ET
Posted by: Javier Moreno, Cuba, quiero bailar la salsa...

Ok, fellas, this is my review of EMG and the Concord show... It still needs proofreading, so... all your comments and criticizm are welcome to my email buildingfactors@hotmail.com

Cheers,
J

http://www.geocities.com/cacaorock/newlps/lpsteelydanemg.html

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 21:52:32 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Speaking of Cubano Chant, I'd love to see some type of cd or dvd from this tour just to get a copy of SD's version of that tune! When I saw them here in Atlanta, I sort of knew what to expect from all that I had read here, but I didn't know the tune. When I got to Vegas, I couldn't wait to hear it. Hell I went and bought the Mancini cd that had "Session at Pete's Pad" after I saw the 2000 tour here. I had to email the webdrone to find out what the name of the intermission tune was.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 21:42:18 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Wow, lots of interesting comments on the visual artists. Does anyone know or recall if and/or when B and/or F have specifically been quoted anywhere on art or artists they might enjoy?

Gadd's recordings comprised of solo drums are very reminiscent of Max Roach's in that they are SONGS, not just drum solos, cf, "Duke's Lullaby" from the first Gadd Gang album. Gotta get The Gadd Gang Live On DVD, easily available from Amazon.

Jaydee - actually that Meal Reviewer guy is rumored to be showing up in a novel about Steely Dan fans that is ciruclating all over the web these days. Email me for a sample page.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 21:32:21 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Doctor Mu: there's not much I can add about Carlock. He certainly did impress. I'd like to see what he'll do to Sting's tunes. While I'd still consider myself a big fan of Sting's, nothing since "Ten Summoners' Tales" has done a whole lot for me. I thought that album just killed! I'm sure that has more to do with what Vinnie played on it than anything else. Ten Summoners had an edge to it that I haven't seen with Sting since.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 21:24:57 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Hoops - let me tell you that I am in total agreement with your last post. All of it. Hello, NO sarcasm.

James, don't tell me you're still pissed at me, c'mon we love the same thing.

Let's rock people; life's too short.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 20:33:41 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Josey: Carlock amazed me with his versatility and virtuosity. That was the best live Aja in Dallas I've heard including the '93 St. Louis show. Herington was incredible - I'd like to see even more props for the guy

Keith Carolock excelled in so many styles - the first set was as good as a live band could be.

Cubana Chant – Carlock knew when not to overwhelm a band in this jazzy, Latin opener..almost a John Guerin touch..this may have been his best performance - we know what he did with the title track for TvN


Aja – Carlock was muscular but not overpowering

Time Out of Mind - Carlock set a great groove

Godwhacker – Carlock is the first Dan drummer since Porcaro who can really groove and fill at the same time. This is NOT a shuufle a la Purdie

Caves of Altamira – one of the shows highlights…Pugh has an amazing solo…Fagen’s vocals are in the zone

Black Cow – Carlock and Barney really got in sync with each other

Babylon Sisters – Carlock gives us a shuffle, and unlike purdie, he's never late


DADDY Don’t Live In hat NY City No More - straight ahead rock drumming. Perfect for Walter's vocals


Peg – really swung. I think Carlock's even BETTER at swing than rock!!!

Home At Last – Keith was dare I say even better than Purdie on this one...I was certainly ready for some Chesterfield Kings after the first set...my finally tuned hearing was a little whacked for the second set, since the amps were turned up to 11 in a tin box...


I'd go see Sting (though I wouldn't pay for it) just to see and hear Carlock doing 5/4 and 7/4 time on a few songs.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 19:04:10 ET
Posted by: hoops,

"What you said about the best way to communicate is face to face is so right on."

EXACTLY MY POINT TO BEGIN WITH! Not a question of taste or distaste of someone's vocals but that one should consider what it would be like to tell them face to face, 'cos they just might see what you wrote or spead that kind of karma. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT. I'm glad we agree Rajah.


ATTENTION DANDOM DIGEST SUBSCRIBERS!
I sent out the Dandom Digest last Friday. Of about 1800-1900 addresses, about 70 came back as undeliverable.

In some cases, (like Rajah for example) you have changed internet service providers or email addresses (like Rajah switched to SBC, Ed_Beatty switched from earthlink, etc) and you didn't give me an updated email address or unsubscribe the old one. Over the weekend, I found over TWENTY regulars who weren't getting the digest simply because they never bothered to switch. So all of sudden some of you might find that you are getting a Dandom Digest after not getting it for a two or three months. If you aren't getting the Digest and think it's a slight on my part, WRONG! I'll let you know if it's come to that, and I can't recollect in recent years when it has.

One additional problem is that some people have their anti-SPAM and FireWalls set up such that I can't send you the Digest.

So if you are not getting the Dandom Digest and don't know why, please email me at hoops@dandom.com. THANKS!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 18:35:53 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

WuDuF - What you said about the best way to communicate is face to face is so right on.

Q - Salvador Dali has always reminded me of SD. Dali's imagery was way out there. So outrageous. If he painted one blood-orange sky, he painted a zillion. His pallette spanned the entire spectrum of colour. His subject matter was the stuff of fever dreams. His favorite recurring image: giraffe with mane ablaze, literally on fire. Disturbing, unforgettable and definitely an acquired taste. He remained creative and vibrant till the end. Not derivative of any one school of painting.

Still Sparkin - no, you do not have to be hyper-literate at all to appreciate SD at all. Only hyper-curious and willing to make connections, lots of connections, most of which will be subjective and remain personal to you alone.

Q2 - I'm reading a wacky book given me by a college buddy last summer called, "Liverpool Fantasy." Its premise is that Parlophone Records wanted the first Beatles' single to be: "Hippy Hippy Shake" instead of an orinal of theirs, "Love Me Do." Lennon got pissed cause he didn't want the maiden voyage to take off on somebody else's ship and broke their contract and split up. Funny "what if" book. [I'll give you one tidbit: McCartney ends up a Vegas lounge act!]

Before that, Michael Crichton's "Timeline" cause I like anything set in another time period. This is coming soon as a movie and I hope they do it justice.

And finally, "The Death of Right & Wrong" by the former president of the LA chapter of NOW. A liberal lesbian lady to say the least, get this, she now blames the decline of civilization on multiculturalism, identity politics and "relitavism." She says American society is a "moral vacuum" incapable of distinguishing right from wrong. So this gal goes from being elite leftist to penning this right-wing screed. Yikes, couldn't finish it, waay to long winded but interesting to see somebody do such a 180.

Reminds me of when Sinatra turned into a Republican.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 16:12:29 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, work

Re: "Aja is better than any group's best album"

Joey, guess what?

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 16:06:33 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

Some Thoughts .............................................


Because I am a Steely Dan fan , I am above others ;
Understand , I am sympathetic to other individual's tastes though .
Aja is better than any groups best album ;
EMG ranks a close second .

When , Oh when , will Don and Walt Tour again ?
If they don't we will still have the best memories .
Black Friday should only be played LOUD!
Bodhisattva especially .

Rikki Don't Lose that Number has never really been played well live;
Deacon Blues was VERY good live in 2000.
Everyone knows Walter is good tonight and EVERY night ;
Shine the Silver Bowl on THAT one .

Cousin Dupree sounds even better live in concert;
More preeminent than Jack of Speed in my opinion .
GodWhacker sounds luminescent on the stage ;
Slang of Ages does not .
Steely Dan " Gold " is their weirdest release .
True Companion saves it , barely .

Things I Miss the Most is good mood music;
Only when I'm laying down do I appreciate THAT one.
Run , do not walk , to your CD Player now !
Respect the power inside . Steely Dan music is infectious !
Under my skin it stays ...... Like a pleasurable rash .
Please give Blues Beach another listen tonight ;
To crank Everything Must Go is one of life's greatest gifts .


Thank You


The Joey , Established 2003 !

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 15:27:31 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

PQ - yes, Burgess wrote Clockwork Orange, along with lots of other stuff including a few symphonies and the paleolithic 'language' for the film 'Quest for Fire'! But Earthly Powers is his masterwork, with a great opening sentence and a polyglottal intelligence worthy of Don and Walt or even, dare I say, the sadly-departed Meal Reviewer.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 15:00:04 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Hoops, I didn't mean to say that the subject matter was funny, as of course it's not, and poking fun of it would be highly insensitive. I'm very award of the horrific problems surrounding us 24/7, and it is sad. I just meant that the McCann/Harris version of the song (I never heard Roberta Flack's) was kind of funny the way they performed it, with the gravel-y voice, the expletives, etc. with kind of a "grumpy old men" attitude. They seemed like they were trying to give it a comedic twist.
G

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 14:58:45 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

The only version of "Compared To What" I'm familiar with is done by this quirky guy named Col. Bruce Hampton. He's had a variety of bands over the course of time. One of them was called Col. Bruce Hampton and the Aquarium Rescue Unit. They cover that tune on one of their cd's. The bass player from that band, Oteil Burbridge, has been the bass player for the Allman Bros. for the last few years.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 14:41:35 ET
Posted by: KD,

We used to cover a punky version of "Compared To What" with a tenor sax-playing friend of mine blowing his brains out all over it.

Lots of fun, I love singing in Bb.

Joe, you rule.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 14:40:10 ET
Posted by: hoops,

"Compared to What" is a great song indeed, although I think it only will make me fall out of my chair, the reality is too sad for me to laugh about . I first heard the song on Roberta Flack's "First Take" with liner notes by Les McCann. I'm not a huge Roberta Flack fan overall, but "First Take" is one of my favorite albums of all time. Very understated yet powerful.

Thanks, Joe M.

Josey, you're not alone, I'm not familiar with the Gadd gang.


jim

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 14:10:13 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, hunting tigers with my elephant

You know what the theme song for these toubled times should be? "Compared to What" by Les McCann and Eddie Harris from the "Swiss Movement" LP. Listen closely to the lyrics, you'll fall off your chair laughing!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 11:52:29 ET
Posted by: JoeM,

Fellow Danizens,

In the interest of cranking up the afterglow… We are pleased to announce the release of yet another update to the “Complete Digital Steely Dan” program.

Revision 3.10 includes a Tour 2003 Utility with reviews, photo’s and other surprises from the recent tour; many more articles regarding “Everything Must Go”; tons of updated photo’s from both new millennium and Jurassic Steely Dan epochs; more Sideman Utility additions including Walt Weiskopf, Lou Marini, Jim Pugh, Jim Keltner and Don Grolnick; and tons of articles from the Dan’s juggernaut 70’s era.

Show the world that mighty hidey-ho face! Go to StAl's illustrious software site at banyantrees.net and download it now, it’s FREE!

And happy holidays...

Joe

Note: The link still says Revision 3.0 but, read on. It's in fact a new version (3.10).

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 11:50:17 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Gretchen; Nice thoughts BUT how the hell is Turner Gonna get Retsina in Holland ? More likely to be Gin (Tanqueray perhaps) And I woulda had the boys being animated by Terry Gilliam ... "Now for something completely different" Could be their mantra ??

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 10:24:43 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Peter Q,
Interesting discussion point regarding artists and Steely Dan. I always have images of the work of Alex Katz when I try to "animate" the songs of Donald and Walter. The bright colors, the quirky expressions, the "real" (meaning non perfect)images he portrays. I think it would be an interesting project to undertake to try and illustrate some of the lyrics.
Another artist that comes to mind is the British watercolor artist Turner. He was once asked how he portrayed his famous work of a storm at sea in such a vivid and realistic way. Turner had gone to Holland and enlisted the help of a fisherman to take him out to sea in the next storm. Once on the boat, Turner requested to be "tied to the mast" so that he could experience the storm in full effect, in essence becoming part of the storm. He returned safely, and painted his vivid image of the tempest. He was an artist who liked to experience things first hand before portraying them. In painting a storm at sea, he didn't want another "tired sea song," perhaps?
How the man survived being tied to a mast during a wild storm is a mystery, but I'm sure he needed plenty of retsina after that.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 09:35:10 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

I'm embarrased to say that, as much as I love Gadd, I'm not familiar with any of the Gadd Gang stuff. My favorite would probably have to be from Chick Corea's Three Quartets. Aja is an obvious favorite, along with that mozambique pattern on "Late in the Evening". Not many other drummers that can make a beat feel like Gadd. I thought Carlock's take on Aja was pretty stunning. Was fortunate enough to have seen them here in Atlanta then Vegas the following weekend.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 09:26:49 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Josey - I always thought Gadd's tune 'Strength' from one of the Gadd Gang albums was one of the greatest tunes ever. Even his vocals on it are excellent.

Jaydee - Cool correlation! I would never have thought Paula Rego. Anthony Burgess, didn't he write A Clockwork Orange?

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 09:16:33 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Peter Q - definitely not that Modern Drummer! In high school (79-83) I thought Peart was pretty much "the guy" until I discovered Weckl, Colaiuta, Steve Smith, Gadd, etc. etc. The most recent MD features Steve Gadd. The cover reads "Gadd Almighty". No mention of the "Aja in one take" story though.

It seems based on the last responses from my mistaking Carlock for being 25, that he's somewhere between 27 and 45. I went searching for a date of birth but found none.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 08:56:17 ET
Posted by: Davis, Down at the Lido

Not Stu..

I am still surprised he is 31,, He looks like a teenager, pimples and all,,, lol... That would explain why he is so good.. I knew a kid in his 20's couldnt pull off the beats he does, just not enough time or experience..

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 08:14:19 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

Peter Q - re your artistic question : the New York scenarios (Daddy don't live etc) always conjure up Edward Hopper for me, and the dark ambiguous stuff maybe Paula Rego. 'Caves of Altimira' is Cezanne, or at least the 'step into the sun' line is. And I'll throw in Ingres for the technical precision.

Current bedtime reading is Josiah Thompson's 'Six Seconds in Dallas' (topical enough), but if you'd caught me last week it would have been Grisham. Book with most SDesque resonances for me is 'Earthly Powers' by Anthony Burgess - rather too 'English' maybe, but similar linguistic dexterity.

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 04:02:05 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @itagain

"that band"

"Mr S don't like not being the prime focus" ... WHAT was I trying to say? answers on a POSTcard please LOL

Infact Sting proved that very self centred trait during the interview with Mr Parky - He got right narked when Eddie (action transvestite) Izzard took the spotlight away from with a witty remark - And was heard to question "Whose interview is this?" or somethin' like that ...

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 03:52:05 ET
Posted by: Beerberian back , @it

HOOPS; Surprised nobody picked up The Carlock on Parkinson (Parky to us) playing with Sting NO infact upstaging the man on "When We Dance" ... NOW I see what you lucky people who got to see him were on about ... How many arms ? great half stick work too ...I can't see him lasting in thta band tho' Mr S don't like not being the prime focus ...

Reailised too late to get the tape running too DOH !!

Date: Mon, November 24, 2003, 01:50:17 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Just so we're all on the same page, the R&R Hall of Fame mentions Steely Dan's "hyper literate series of albums."

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 22:12:46 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Jon is a consummate professional and an amazing Guitarist. Bette is a Diva.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 21:59:49 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, The Library?

Still Sparkin' -- I think you can also be hypo-literate, but no middle ground allowed.

(Hint- If you're just plain ol' literate, fake it and you can pass...
For example, if you can espouse a theory on whether Josie is a pagan or Christian image, that will also allow you to be a fan!)

P.S. Currently reading a biography of Lenin, the commie. 'Fraid that may skew in the hyper direction :-o

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 20:53:31 ET
Posted by: Still Sparkin", China

If you are not 'hyper literate' does that preclude you from being a (true) Steely Dan fan ?

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 18:51:39 ET
Posted by: Not Stu,

Carlock is 31 years old, or at least he was 5 months ago when he told me.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 18:31:33 ET
Posted by: DAVIS, Boston

Stu

I would like to see where it's documented that Carlock is 33 Years old... I would be shocked if he was a day over 27...

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 18:20:45 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

hypothetical friend - Wow! I had not looked into that previously.

Josey - not the Modern Drummer where Neil Peart wins the readers' poll as best drummer every year?

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 16:47:01 ET
Posted by: hypothetical friend,

peter Q: i see a definite parallel between photographer jerry uelsmann and the music of steely dan. check out his site:

http://www.uelsmann.com/

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 16:06:10 ET
Posted by: abdullah #5,

Actually, "this all too mobile home" refers to a car - "I get 4 or 5 miles a gallon in this old car"

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 16:02:55 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Dr Mu-

Pretty impressive. In Donald's case, he's older than me so I still have time to catch up!

-Pete

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 14:41:07 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

At age 33 Donald Fagen had released as Steely Dan Can't Buy a Thrill, Countdown to Ecstacy, Pretzel, Logic, Katy Lied, Royal Scam, Aja, and Gaucho and was finishing The Nightfly...

at age 33 Mozart was dead.


Walter played bass on Hey 19 for the Gaucho recording.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 13:02:23 ET
Posted by: bassicinstinct, UK

Stu:

Totally agree with you, but I think someone else has said he played on both Hey 19 AND Century`s End.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 10:48:13 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Peter Q, my attention span rarely allows me to get through a book in it's entirety. I'm currently reading the latest editions of Modern Drummer.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 10:46:26 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Can you imagine being 33 years old and in the span of 12 months, going out on the road with Steely Dan and Sting? What's next?

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 10:38:30 ET
Posted by: Stu,

Josey...Keith Carlock is 33 years old. Not 25.

Bass...According to my notes Jimmy Haslip has never played bass on a SD record.


Hoops...What happened to Herington? You mean he's good enough for Donald and Walter but not good enough for Bette Midler?????????????????

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 09:53:41 ET
Posted by: bassicinstinct, UK

Bass duties on Hey 19 were, according to the sleeve notes from the original vinyl release, handled by the honourable WB and NOT Jimmy Haslip.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 09:48:18 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I am curious to know a couple things - does anyone associate Steely Dan lyrics with any particular painter or photographer, that is, do the lyrics remind you of the work of any particular visual artist or do you think the lyrics are inspired by any certain visual artist? Not film directors, I have a good idea about that already.

Second, since SD fans are supposed to be hyper literate, what is everybody reading these days? I am curious to know the kinds of books people are checking out. I'm reading a book in which a life resurgence the author had I believe resembles the kind of thing B&F may have experienced when they decided to reunite after long silence.

Thirdly, an e-novel about a Steely Dan fan is in the works and a free one page sample is being offered to test reaction. Please email if interested. Thank you.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 09:30:58 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Hoops, can you imagine being 25 years old - and in the span of 12 months, you're on the road with Steely Dan and Sting? What's next?

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 06:17:42 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

OK I concede 'jag' has already gone. Maybe I need to think about the word 'for' followed by the letter 'd'. Or I could just go to the pub.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 06:04:42 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

And if 'continental' doesn't, then 'Lincoln' certainly does (Maxine). And how about "cry a jag on me". Another last minute drop-kick victory for England I think!

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 01:50:53 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

If that counts I'll grab the milk truck. And aren't Rio and Solitaire models of cars? And surely the word 'continental' appears somewhere in the SD canon.

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 00:16:38 ET
Posted by: WuDuF, playing in Bethel

I didn't see my entry in the new Steely Dan game--autos mentioned in their songs. Does "Technicolor Motor Home" count?

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 00:14:17 ET
Posted by: WuDuF, playing in Bethel

Cars mentioned in S.D. songs-- "Technicolor Motor Home"

Date: Sun, November 23, 2003, 00:11:53 ET
Posted by: WuDuF, bewildered in Bethel

Hey hoops-thanks for the response. I didn't mean to imply that things were out of hand or anything, it had just been a few days since I had checked the board, and as I read through I was a little bummed out by what I was reading. Glad things worked out for you.

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 23:33:39 ET
Posted by: hoops,

WuDuFu, I aprreciate the good vibes of what you wrote. I have been using Email sincee the mid-80s and forums since '89. You remind us of some good points. Thursday, I didn't like the attitude I was responded with nor the lame way Walter was dissed. I don't regret my response, although I do wish the situation never arose in the first place.

Jon Herington's web assistant contacted me to say that he has had a change of plans and likely won't be on the Better Midler tour as mentioned here and in the Dandom Digest yesterday.

Will be seeing Carlock perform on Feb 27. Apparently some guy name Sting is handling vocals at his gig.

jim

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 22:02:56 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, Cyber-editor

Re: Songs without title in lyrics site. I actually was able to go in and add a list of SD items. Took longer to find the posts with the items than to make the edits. Kinda cool! (Someone else may want to add the Fagen numbers... I need to get a life!)

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 21:33:05 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Was looking up some music info when I came across the following. They don't include SD in the listing, but still pretty interesting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_whose_title_does_not_appear_in_the_lyrics

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 20:34:52 ET
Posted by: WuDuF, bemused in Bethel

Hey all who were involved in the recent "squabble." One of the things that I have found difficult with this type of communication is that so much of human communication is non-verbal (body language, intonation, facial expression, etc) that it is really easy to misinterpret what someone says. We all probably have very differing views on the personalities of those of us who post here.While I enjoy posting, and going in the chat room, I must admit it is not my favorite way to communicate. As the wise Zim once said, "sarcasm can be easily missed". Other boards I frequent have also had this problem of people using it as a way of blasting others, or playing a silly game of one-upmanship. Let's not let that happen here.
Oh-by the way-as a female who believes that phone sex is more about the sound of the person's voice and not necessarily the things they might be saying-I would LOVE to have a conversation with Walter...

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 14:45:53 ET
Posted by: Abu2,

Re cars: I always see the car in Boston Rag as some sort of old Impala or something.

Date: Sat, November 22, 2003, 03:26:54 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

Thanks for Yellowjackets info - 'Century's End' was the one I was trying to remember (I win my bet - a pint of warm English beer). YJs line up was Haslip, Ferrante, Mintzer and Marcus Baylor, the most ambidextrous drummer I've ever seen. Hoping to see Carlock with Sting next year to see if he lives up to all the reports here.

YJs were great - even chatting and signing in the foyer (Ronnie Scotts) during their break!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 23:00:59 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California (home)

Cars:

A "cab" (Charlie Freak). Does that qualify?

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 22:17:03 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, exile on Main Street

I do have an idea of "scrapple" but I won't post it here. Knowing Josie, it just wouldn't be right to spell it out in mixed company!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 22:01:50 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Healing,

Jim, thanks for putting me back on the Digest. On some level you must know how much it means to me to be with you all. I still have issues with you but, like a brother, I feel we can smack each other around a little bit and yet still retain the love.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 21:45:36 ET
Posted by: hoops, dandom

Hey kids & Danizens;

Just a notice that the Dandom Digest, the cornerstone of Dandom.com just came out with a new edition dated Nov 8-21, 2003.

Among the headlnes:

-- Steely Dan Reading Rack: D + W interview, more
-- Becker/Fagen-produced "Apogee" due on CD
-- Keith Carlock's Doings
-- Jon Herington: Kiss my Axe?
-- RE: "Scrapple"
-- Re: Scrapple
-- Re: What is Scrapple?
-- RE: FLASHBACK '93: "Dallas" & "Sail The Waterway"
-- Toto's Bodhisattva
-- Re: What's Next?
-- Re: What's Next? (Steely Dan & Dandom)

If you don't get this and want to, or want to know more, please see http://www.dandom.com/dandomdigest

jim

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 21:36:52 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Rajah:
Exile from what? Don't look at me, I wrote at 1:12 PM today, apology accepted. But not my thing to nuzzle.

peace out,

jim

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 21:28:36 ET
Posted by: Rajah in Exile,

Haslip plays big bottom bass on Century's End and Hey 19. "Shades" from Yellowjackets and most of the Rosie Vela stuff.

Can somebody send me a toothbrush? It's lonely out here.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 20:14:48 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Jimmy Haslip guested on stage with the Dan at the Rotterdam show in 2000.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 19:44:17 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Jaydee, PQ: Jim Haslip played bass on Fagen's Century's End. I can't think of any others.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 18:30:24 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Jaydee - Haslip responds to emails on his site, jimmyhaslip.com, you could ask him directly. In my own humble recollection I think the only Jackets that have crossed over to Dan were Lawson and Vinnie C. Maybe. Did you see the version with Robben Ford on guitar or with Bob Mintzer on sax?

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 15:34:38 ET
Posted by: Jaydee, London

Saw the magnificent Yellowjackets last night, leading to heated discussion with my companion about SD/YJs connections. Ricky Lawson is one, and I'm sure bassist Jimmy Haslip has played on a Dan song but I can't track it down - can anyone help out here?

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:48:35 ET
Posted by: Rcray, nyu

I just got back into the nightfly which I had put on hold for a couple of years because I played it too much.

It still seems as new and fresh as the first day i listened to it.


I never realized how much i loved that guitar at the end of "Ruby Baby". It is amazing...anyone know who it was?

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:39:32 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Peter Q:

Let what or who stay and why? Huh? What?

jim

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:28:57 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Re an earlier post by someone - most famous people are lurkers, that is hardly a revelation. In networking classes nowadays we teach how to meet anybody in the whole world you might want to meet - via the Web. What used to take five years can now take just a couple of days on the Web. I have a work associate who has ghost written the autobiographies of about fifteen famous people, just because he initiated email conversations with them.

I know it's totally off topic Jim, but at least it's not a 10,000 word essay on Little Feat. Hope you let it stay!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:23:26 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, drinking cappuccino

My favorite car - a yellow Jag!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:15:43 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

See Fever Dreams excerpts of my forthcoming book for a sliver of my discussion about cars in Steely Dan lyrics.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:15:17 ET
Posted by: Connie, in the vineyard

Shark de ville - which I assume is a Cadillac with those fins.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 14:01:11 ET
Posted by: Melanie, ca

Hoops-Lark is the only other one I can think of right now....

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:38:43 ET
Posted by: Abu2, with the flu

What SD tunes would you play to help yourself power through a really awful case of the flu? Here's my partial list, in no particular order:



1.)Aja

2.)True Companion

3.)IGY

4.)Pearl of the Quarter

5.)Chain Lightning

6.)Here at the Western World

7.)Your Gold Teeth 11

8.)Only a Fool Would Say That

9.)Any Major Dude

10.)Turn That Heartbeat Over Again

11.)The Goodbye Look

12.)Walk Between Raindrops

13.)Black Cow

14.)I Got the News

15.)Glamour Profession

and of course, the time honored,Deacon Blues!

Any other suggestions, much appreciated!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:30:44 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

I was afraid of this. Look you guys, don't let this tempest in a teapot spoil your board, go ahead with the DanSteely stuff. I'll be chillin, don't worry. And look whoever you are, I tried to email you but of course it's bogus, so feel free to email me, I'll get it later and we can have a nice chat man to man (or whadevah)and compare genitals. Oh, who am I kidding, of course you won't. Cripes, what I apologize most for is spoiling everybody's fun and casting a pallor over one of the few fun places around. No other apologies from anyone are necessary. Ahhhh! Peace.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:17:22 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

To the Lurker:
I'd like you to tell me where I said "we should all see Rajah's point." You're just a loose cannon, dude.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:17:01 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Actually Gretchen, except for the part about you, I think the post is mostly dead-on, or at least I agree with it. How about some car names, huh?

jim

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:14:16 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

*********To Whomever just posted the identity-less message:
Goodness, are YOU quick to jump on someone without really reading the message! Honestly, do you even know me? I am not pretending to like Walter's voice, and I don't think anyone else here is either. His voice is definitely an acquired taste. Usually opinions are honest here, and no condescending is involved. Who are you to police the site? And who are you to say Walter would cringe? Do you really know him that well, my friend? And saying I have "no clue" further highlights your ignorance. My casual comment referred to myself, as I'm having kind of a rough day. Don't read into things when they simply aren't there.***************

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 13:12:02 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Thanks for the last post of support, but let's give a rest. Gretchen wasn't saying she enjoyed Rajah's stupid remark but am grateful for your words as a whole. Apology acepted, Rajah.

Here's a fun game I was thinking of this morning for us to drink Tang™® by: Name all the makes and, where possible, models, of automobiles named in Steely Dan or DF or WB songs. Here's a few to get your started

- Audi TT
- BMW ("Beemer")
- Chrysler
- Chevrolet (was in early-version lyrics of a certain Steely Dan song)
- Chevy Blazer (a red one)
- Cadillac Eldorado
- Kamakiri (Sure, it's fictional in a literal way)

Interestingly enough "Midnight Cruiser" doesn't mention the kind of car being cruised in. Maybe it's a black, 1972 Olds Vista Cruiser with simulated wood side panels.

Dandom Digest out in a little bit.

jim

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 12:55:34 ET
Posted by: Rajah should be erased ,

Yo, it's pretty obvious that Walter lurks off and on the Dan Fan superhighway. It blows my mind why ANYONE would want to recycle some tired, old "joke" worthy of the humor of a seven-year-old to insult half of Steely Dan. Especially when the dude has been so gracious to us, as Hoops points out. Supposed to be funny? Rajah needs to take that class from Shecky Green.

I know Walter would cringe if you pretended to like his singing when you didn't. But why, why, WHY as Joey might beg, would a fan say it in a way that is so insulting to our Steely Dan heroes? Like Rajah would have the balls to say that to Walter in person.

Gretchen and Pivotal Pete say we should all chill and try to see Rajah's point and get along?????????????? What is wrong with you people??????? I can't believe you are tolerating such rudeness to empathize with an assinine remark by Rajah. It's supposed to be OK? Rajah is plainly rude and Hoops is supposed to apologize????? If most of us were Hoops, we would have blown our stack a long time ago.

Hoops was wrong about one thing: Rajah's not an asshole, just a dork.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 12:03:42 ET
Posted by: Randy, Northern NJ / USA

While there is no Steely Dan content (yet), for those who may be interested, here's the latest addition to my site:

http://hometown.aol.com/nightfly62/PAGEEIGHT.html

Randy / NIGHTFLY62(at)aol.com

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 11:47:24 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Grant Green - "Live at the Lighthouse" - it's a good thing.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 10:51:49 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Gretchy - I'll return when I've collected myself a little more and with, of course, the indulgence of our host. I'm afraid I won't be able to keep my composure enough to not lash out in a manner unbefitting and ultimately disrespectful to all of us and the time we put in here to listen, learn and have terrific laughs. My folks taught me better than that. If I have offended any of you here, I truly do apologize. You've all read the posts, I'm content to let them speak for themselves. Nuzzles.

David Di Giannantonio

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 09:50:56 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, down at the bottom of the eastern sky

I think we all just gots to chill. Myself included. I need caffeine. The blokes should be golfing, so I'm going to play all SD today at near full blast and enjoy the solitude.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 09:46:47 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

I happen to like Walter's voice. Rajah, did you ever really listen to 11 TOW? Maybe he doesn't have the classic smoothness as Sinatra, but he's not trying to accomplish that style. For the lyrics he writes, his voice is perfect. He has that underlying sadness that accompanies the themes to his music so well. I thought his version Haitian Divorce was especially mournful and appropriate. The only thing I missed was Donald's snarly "yeah" at the end of each verse. Walt's a bluesy singer, not a lounge act. Down and gritty, with raw emotion and lots of sarcasm. I guess it's a matter of personal taste, but hey, I listen to Robert Fripp!

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 07:47:45 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Yeah Sanchez is on it - and how! There's no conversation on it at all. No interview clips, commentary, etc. Just 15 tracks of PMG. It was done in some concert hall in Tokyo. The mix on it is so good it's hard to believe.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 05:41:07 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Lutz - actually that is the title of a song on A Brazilian Love Affair.

Date: Fri, November 21, 2003, 02:18:33 ET
Posted by: Still Sparkin', China

Hey Josey, I am indeed interested in the new Metheny DVD. Is the drummer Sanchez playing on it ?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 23:45:06 ET
Posted by: angel,

PeterQ: Check your email....


New York State Fair makes a record amount of money. Must be that afterparty with Scotty and Alan, Pete and company. ;-)

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--statefair-attenda1107nov07,0,2835551.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 23:22:47 ET
Posted by: Lutz, SF

5 cd's right now (excluding the obvious SD)
1) Steve Swallow " Damaged in transit"(amazing, w/Chris Potter)
2) Kurt Rosenwinkel " Heartcore" (the future)
3) Phil Upchurch " Tell the truth" (groovy and honest)
4) Wayne Shorter " Second Genesis" (early 60's,great after EMG)
5) Allan Holdsworth "All night wrong" (new w/J.Johnson,Wackerman)

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 22:38:27 ET
Posted by: TomorrowsGirl, Stargate

No one's in the greenroom tonite. What gives? Lonesome in there.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 22:30:22 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Walter gives great phrasing - sings better live and on EMG than 11 ToW

peace out

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 22:28:16 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

PQ: The 70s stuff is fresher, just more tangential to the Smooth Jazz thread...didn't know about the horns...

will put Maxwell on the wish list...

RS is constantly writing revisionist history...didn't CTE make a top 200 list a couple of years ago?


chai latte: Believe it or not, one of Donald's neighbors Dad did actually build a fallout shelter...thus inspired the song...



Top 5 hmmmmm...

1. The Nightfly (DVD-A)
2. Katy Lied
3. Aja
4. Love Supreme - 'Trane
5. Cookin' - Miles Davis

hon. mention: Revolver and Rubber Soul and Together Alone (Crowded House - great group of pop songs - if Neil Finn were just a little better musician would be in many top 10s)...

Peter Gabriel's Melt and Security among the missing?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 22:02:37 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, Still f#%&ing@work

I try to stay out of these little tiffs for the most part, but I gotta say it didn't look like Rajah deserved what was given him. Had it not been for the few posts following his comment, I wouldn't have given it a second thought and I am a serious Walter Becker backer, hell he mentioned the Great Lakes Trifecta during the intro to Monkey in Milw. in 2K, that says alot about being there for your fans, (whether you can sing well or not even at all).


Didn't mean no dis. Word to your mother.

Peace out

KC

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:50:24 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, Des Moines

Hoops- In Rajah's defense, I think he was making a joke and not intending to dis Walter, or you. Also, I would guess quite a few of us are not aware of Walter's generosity -- was news to me.
Hope you guys can let bygones... etc.

Gretchen- Was a bit older when Sgt Peppers came out. Your Dad's comment I suspect was prompted by the mustaches, which at the time were really unusual. The Beatles first sported them in videos for Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields and it was quite a shock.
'Course a year or two later and everyone had a 'stache ...

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:45:25 ET
Posted by: arlean, pittsburgh

hey, i responded.

you just have to get in it and do so. just like any place new. i told the ladies about it in sunday suckey ladies smokin' lounge and they were like what? so much weirdness going on there as well. donna stated "i have been to the steelydan room, and didn't like it". i said this one is blue. maybe they will check it, this out. just get in there will you!

yes, ending the show with flying cowboys, was a good feeling. i read an interview with walter in a songwriters book and he said that rickie was having so much fun in the studio with flying cowboys that she inspired him to get in the studio and do 11tracksofwack.

interesting, these connections these people have.

and walter sings better than me!

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:40:57 ET
Posted by: Laina, trying this again.....

Yikes @ the, erm, "disagreement" some posts below.

What's in my CD player?

Jet - Get Born
Jonny Lang - Long Time Coming
Joss Stone - The Soul Sessions
Steely Dan....
Steely Dan....
Steely Dan....

A little late, but I would like to hear Steely Dan's treatment of Caetano Veloso's "London, London".

Lainalove

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:33:12 ET
Posted by: Laina, yes, I wanna be on the sand

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:28:35 ET
Posted by: Lutz, SF

PeterQ,
what George Duke album is that? Thought I have most of them.Thanks.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:26:37 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

Since Metheny's name shows up here from time to time, has anyone checked out his new DVD? If you're into Metheny, get it! It was just released a few days ago in the stores. Well worth the $20.00 cost.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:23:49 ET
Posted by: hoops,

But my friends, that's why we have THE DANNYS™!

Yes, once again, the sorta annual DANNY AWARDS™ will be upon us, an awards show where we can know and share the things we love with those of our kind. For starters, we know how to pronounce "Aja" and it even gets more exciting than that!

For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, see http://www.dandom.com/thedannys

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 21:05:27 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, In the Air (i.e. plane to Chicago)

RS Lists - These lists/ratings, like the Grammmys, always send me into a schizophrenic funk. I'm happy with some selections, shocked and appalled at others. Would recommend trying hard to ignore it, though admittedly it's muy difficult. A masochistic pleasure, I guess.

Don't know why, but this reminds me of my nomination as the MOST absurd moment in pop music history (award or otherwise): John Lennon and Paul Simon co-presenting the Record of the Year Grammy (circa 77) to Olivia Newton-John for "I Honestly Love You." [May need to fact check this, but pretty sure that was it.] "Hopelessly Devoted" maybe, but ...

Loved Hoops' question about songs with titles that don't appear in the lyrics. How about Albums with titles that aren't just songs on the record? Seems a lot more creative and interesting IMHO.

SD started that way with CBAT, CTE, and Katy but fell into the less-creative mode later.

Others? [Hint - a few in the RS Top 10] ...

[Eponymous albums get only half credit. The 80s new-wave group Big Country, which did a SONG called Big Country and named the album after both the song and themselves actually gets *negative* points!!!]

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 20:48:00 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Arlean:
Actually, I posted to the RLJ / Furiture for the People Site.

For SD Fans, RLJ did two tangentially-connected songs. She closed the show with "Flying Cowboys" which was the title track from her Becker-produced album (and a great prelude to 11TOW in my book, at least) and she performed "Pirates" which of course featured Donald on keys for the original studio version.

RLJ's equipment was held up in customs coming in from Canada, so the show started about 45 minutes late and she mentioned the show almost didn't happen as a result. The venue was something like 5000 seats maybe? It was about half-filled. Part of it goes back to there being a falling out with the radio station that most frequently played her songs in Chicago, WXRT. She was unhappy with the acoustics during rehearsals (which are different from when there is an audience) and she insisted that the show be moved to another venue. This apparently alienated WXRT which now refuses to play her, or so claimed RLJ at the show. Still WXRT listed her show last week on their calendar of events.

WXRT has sponsored some of the Chicago area SD shows.

Anyhow, nobody on the RLJ board responed to either of my posts about the show. Oh well.

jim

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 20:36:16 ET
Posted by: arlean, pittsburgh

hoops, could you tell us about the Rickie Lee Jones show last week. did you meet her? fftp family and all.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 20:04:28 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Left out the Pat Metheny - Ornette Coleman colab, Song X, forgot, sorry.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 19:59:22 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Angel - what does back to Memphis, who sings MOS? mean. I don't get it.

Top 5 albums with the same general musical philosophy as Steely Dan:

1. Incognito, Positivity
2. George Duke, Up From The Sea It Rose and Ate Rio In One Swift Bite
3. Lee Ritenour, Banded Together
4. Etta James, 7 Year Itch
5. Gene Harris, Solo Piano Live @ Maybeck Recital Hall

Top 5 with a counterpoint philosophy:

1. Roland Shannon Jackson & The Decoding Society, Decode Yourself
2. Bill Laswell, Jazzonia
3. Ornette Cleman, The Shape of Jazz To Come
4. James Blood Ulmer, Tales of Captain Black
5. Greg Osby, anything, take your pic

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 19:29:07 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Exactly, Josey--why should someone be so disrespectful of someone else who's been so good to us?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 19:27:11 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, 43rd and Broadway

I was thinking what a different band Steely Dan would have been if Donald Fagen teamed up with Placido Domingo and how much funkier the 3 Tenors would have been with Walter Becker.Do you think Pavarotti would get the lead in Junkie Girl ?
Just doing a little creative thinking before my medication kicks in.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 19:26:07 ET
Posted by: Josey, Atlanta

I can't remember if it was Plato or King who said it, but "can't we all just get along?"

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 19:15:26 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Rajah, I didn't call you an asshole, I said you are BEHAVING like one, but why couldn't you respond like a gentleman in the first place? Moreover, forget about responding to me like a gentleman, in the first place, why couldn't you comment about Walter's vocals like a gentlemen? I sure would hate it if you pretended to like him when you didn't, but there's no reason to be so rude about that I don't know much about Fagen and how he feels about fans (which is part of my point I'm about to make), but I do know that Walter cares a great deal about us fans, be it by example of acknowledging Danfests during band intros, wearing a Boston Danfest shirt on his back, or sending out dozens of shirts to a Danfest, or many other situations . I DEFINITELY defend your right to dislike his vocals--you're right, he's been saying for years that his vocals lack range--but I deplore your bad attitude in criticizing him. The guy is openly nice to us in ways I think are mostly unparalleled. On top of that, it would be a helluva lot easier for him not to sing and rest on his laurels and royalties rather than try something new. A dog would treat him better than that post.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 18:46:01 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Hoops - thinking of just how best to respond to your very sharp rebuke in as gentlmanly a fashion as I can. Rather than devolve into name calling because I would not speak to a dog the way you just have to me and taking into account this is your cyberspace, I would ask you to consider:

1) Walter by his own admission has a "very limited vocal range" I got that from the "One Hour Sale " CD, it can't be much more than an octave

2)he has rendered exactly one tune in nine Steely Dan albums and
cannot in any way be considered an accomplished singer

3)the name of the Mag is "Singer" as someone so generously pointed out to me, and

4)I love Walter; and finally

5)venom, I think, is made of much sterner stuff than "sheesh" and "you're pulling my leg"

As for your comment as to my unwillingness to listen to others, this is just patently not true Hoops, a review of these pages will bear that out. I've learned a lot here.

Now as for asshole. I can tell you, sir, I do not take it kindly.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 18:02:26 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Rajah:
Excuse me? You might be gullible, but I think you are behaving like an asshole to respond to me like that. What the fuck is wrong with you? You make cracks about Walter and you don't even know what the article says. You're just looking to spew your venomous opinions and you could give a shit about seriously enertaining anyone else's thoughts. All I feel is that I've been gullible thinking your post deserved a serious response.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 17:33:38 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Hoops - I know I'm gullible but you must be pulling my leg.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 17:31:14 ET
Posted by: hoops,

For starters, Rajah, Walter is a master of phrasing and intonation...

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 17:21:42 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Gretchy - I'm more than a little interested in your go-gos. Tell me about your skirt, precious. (sorry can't help it, Rajah's a sucker for a girl in a short skirt, prrrrr) Do you have a sexy walk? I bet you do.

(Not)Leo? - (Not)witty. Don has this annoying way of not answering questions put to him, he takes off on tangents. But I'll send you the home version of the Shecky Green Game of funny comebacks, sparkie.

Which also begs a question: what the hell is Walter doing opining on singing. I liked Slang of Ages but sheesh.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 16:44:29 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, home! snuck out early, serves'em right

K Clean, do you think Donald could reach the high notes on "Oxygen?"
Actually, a Steely Dan version of the title track of "Exposure" would be outrageous! I'm sure they could have a go with it and give a jazzy twist to an allready twisted tune.

Rajah, I have to tell you, brother, I got in trouble in kindergarten for wearing white go go boots to school! The teacher sent me home with a nasty note pinned to my dress. My mother was furious and called the school. From then on, Wakelee school girls all wore white go go's. I think she kept mine, I'll have to ask her. I wore the damn things out, even though my legs were so skinny the boys all made fun of how the tops of the boots were too big! I thought you'd appreciate that little tidbit.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 16:39:39 ET
Posted by: (Not) Leo,

"Leo - give us a few more bites from the article. Does Don talk about singing?"

No.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 16:19:47 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Leo - give us a few more bites from the article. Does Don talk about singing?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 16:00:21 ET
Posted by: Dave, The Mohel

Vos hert zikh?

Was checking out the latest on Neverland, or was that Neverworld, and discovered they announced this years Rock Hall inductees---Prince, George Harrison, Traffic, ZZ Top, Jackson Browne and Bob Seger.

I looked all over the site and wondered, who was nominated but not inducted this year?

2007--- that's the year Donald is elligible for solo induction.

Dave

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 15:52:54 ET
Posted by: Leo,

Hey! I picked a few items at Barnes and Noble the other day that may be of interest to some of you here. First, a magazine called "Singer". The December 2003 issue has a cover story on Donald and Walter. A lot of the stuff we have read before. I like where Donald is quoted as saying that he looks at SD albums as "comedy records" This issue is on sale now.

At the same time I picked up a book tittled "99 Red Balloons...and 100 OTHER ALL- TIME GREAT ONE - HIT WONDERS"

The author of the this book is Brent Mann. I see that in the Acknowledgments Pete Fogel is given a nod. I guess that's how Mr. Mann got the information for this segment of his book.

"More Than Just the Two of Us" by "Sneaker" was rated #38 out of 100 One hit wonders by Brent Mann. Here are a few blurbs from the book.

The group "Sneaker" took their name from a Steely Dan track called "Bad Sneakers" In fact Jeff "Skunk" Baxter who played lead guitar with Steely Dan in the 70's acted as Sneakers producer.

After "More Than Just the Two of Us" cracked the Top 40 "Don't Let Me In" another cut off the Sneaker album, was released- to no effect, though the track ran out of gas at #63. "Don't Let Me In" however, was written by the aforementioned Steely Dan duo of Becker and Fagen, a pedigree that rescues the song from complete obscurity.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 15:10:57 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Gretch-o-lina: See, you were traumatized by your Dad's assesment. It prejudiced you more than you know. I was 12 and had been all over the Beatles since "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". Seeing all the teenagers and young adults go from that buttondown stripe shirt era to the bellbottoms and long hair and beards(especially scary on girls) was absolutely shocking to me. The cover itself, an explosion of colour, announced something new and important.

Now about you wanting to see my head come off...jeez, Gretch, I thought we were pals.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 15:06:37 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I haven't listened to a Dan CD since July, but I think CTE is up there in the top 50.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 15:05:26 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @break

Gretch - Exposure! They're gonna haul you off from work in a straight jacket! A friend of mine has that and it is absolutely insane. Awesome stuff. I just listened to Love is the Drug the other day and had that same thought at the beginning of it. However, I don't think Don would be able to 'gruff' the vocals the way Ferry does. As a substitute 'love' song for the boys to cover, how about Love is like Oxygen?


angel - if you are refering to Memphis Blues Again, Skunk sings lead on MOS. YES, Skunk. Ditto on the Pretzel = winter.

Frank is the original bad boy of rock! I've got numerous collections but don't know too many actual 'albums'.


Electric Ladyland - Hendrix
Physical Grafitti - Zeppelin
Sgt. Pepper - Beatles
Joshua Tree - U2
Aja - SD

List may change without notice....

KC

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:41:23 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Rajah, I truly would like to see that phenomenon! Although one would have to be wearing protective clothing at the time. I, too, lived in the Sgt. Pepper era, (I was 4) but vividly remember my father saying how the beatles now looked like "a bunch of creeps" with their new look!

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:37:44 ET
Posted by: Russ,

Rcray, actually Pretzel Logic and Can't Buy a Thrill also were in there on the RS top 500, but lower than Aja...

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:33:15 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Ella has to be the absolute Queen of Song. Of all the wonderful tunes she recorded that I love, she did a rendition of Jobim's "Desafinado" that's just a little slice of paradise. Do you know it? "Love is like a neverending melody..." The title means "out of tune" and she sings certain phrases slightly out of tune to match the lyrics, brilliant. Even her dissonance was perfect. And when Frank and she sang together, well, your head just comes off your body and flies around the room.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:24:52 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte, Clickin and readin

And for your info, Rajah
I AM old enough to have lived in the Sgt. Pepper era, just wasn't old enough when Steely was first touring to have gone to their concerts. My best friend REALLY was at Woodstock in 68.

Back to the RS top 500:

Issue #1 - There are SEVERAL Best of albums on this list. Can't believe that either "A Decade of Steely Dan" OR "Steely Dan's Greatest Hits" didn't make the list.

Issue #2 - See issue number one and factor in that there are TWO albums of The Stooges on this Top 500 list. Surely you jest, RS!

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:23:21 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" However, on my list of favorites "Aja" stands alone as #1 without a doubt. I listen to Steely Dan every day, and there is no other band I need such a fix with. "

I would like to nuzzle you .

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 14:17:42 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte, Still sittin at work - didn't win the lotto last night

Ah, Mr. Rajah,
I TRULY appreciate your COURAGE including the great one's "Songs for Swingin Lovers", that whole album is on my work playlist for those sentimental kinda days...

Do you like Ella as well?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:55:02 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, working with the very cranky boyz upstairs

God,they are driving me to drink here. Instead, I'm listening to Robert Fripp's "Exposure." Crazy album. I hope they golf tomorrow.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:50:35 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Too Chai Chai- I love that Court & Spark. Peoples Parties(is that the title?) and Car on the Hill -maaavelous.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:46:26 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte, Back at the 'puter - finished with lunch

Gretchen, my friend, we sync AGAIN!

But I'm partial to Stevie's "Fulfillingness's First Finale" and while I love Hissing of Summer Lawns, I think Joni's "Court and Spark" was more than just a commercial success.

And Mr. Brubeck's Time Out was SURELY PLAYING in that dugout that Donald's Dad built in The New Frontier.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:36:26 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, distracted at work

I'd like to hear a Steely Dan cover of "Love Is The Drug."

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:32:56 ET
Posted by: angel,

Hoops: Definite congrats on your former students. Their work is fabulous. I showed the picture in the paper this morning to my 13 year old. Very impressed at their making the cut, no small feat coming from a 13 year old.

PQ: Back to Memphis. Who sings MOS?

Pretzel Logic evokes winter, right from the start. That cover is vintage NYC winter feel. Remember last years HO HO Homepage? :-)

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:29:24 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

and mine:

1 Aja
2 Royal Scam
3 Time Out-Dave Brubeck
4 Innervisions-Stevie Wonder
5 Don Juan's Reckless Daughter/Hissing of Summer Lawns-Joni Mitchell

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:20:00 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Darn straight y'all. Here's mine:

Kind of Blue- Miles
AJA - SD
Songs for Swingin Lovers - Sinatra
Sgt. Pepper - Beatles
John Barleycorn Must Die- Traffic

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:08:26 ET
Posted by: rcray, nyc

If Rolling Stone was two-ply I'd wipe my ass with it.


Sorry, I do realize that RS is a piece of shit with writing in it but this list was compiled (so they say) by other musicians and industry folk with ages and tenure in the industry that spanned 4 decades.

Whatever.


My top 5.

1. Aja - Steely Dan
2. Live at Nassau - Grateful Dead
3. Let it Bleed - Stones
4. Abbey Road - Beatles
5. A love supreme - John Coltrane

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:01:08 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Hoops,I agree, and it's scented with little samples of "Glo" by JLo!!

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 13:00:45 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Ladies, I respect your opinion and all about Pepper, I'm just at loss to understand it. I will admit it's a bit scary and out there. Truly, when it came out, and I suspect both of you were a little too young to remember that, it freaked me out too. It's like a signpost from the sixties, things were about to change - big time. That album, historically speakin, is as important an event as the as the assasinations, man on the moon, the birth control pill and the miniskirt(that was THE most important). It remains a chronicle of the time. The songs are uniformly great, I just don't know what's blocking you from the full enjoyment of it. And, quite frankly, it was the perfect match for an LSD experience.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:58:30 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, Continuing the story of Bungalow Bill

The white album for me has always been a personal favorite except for "Long,Long,Long" and "Revolution 1". That voice repeating "number 9" over and over always spooked me. However, on my list of favorites "Aja" stands alone as #1 without a doubt. I listen to Steely Dan every day, and there is no other band I need such a fix with.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:47:56 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Put it another way, RS today is just a scented fashion mag that gets its power by people discussing it. If people stop discussing it, it doesn't have power. End of story.

Why do you hate me so, Joey?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:38:50 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte with a shot of Bacardi, Workin and haven't a really bad day

Well, Gretchen,
You and I must meet someday...we are DEFINITELY in synch.
I agree with your assessment and opinion of Sgt. Pepper.
I grew up with The Beatles and Sgt. Pepper is the only album I NEVER wanted to replace when I bought CD's. Even though the White Album has its' share of dark & desperate songs, I consider that a much more important Beatles album than Sgt. Pepper.

As for the RS elimination of most of the Dan discography, have any of you read (cover to cover) a recent issue of Rolling Stone? I have. The issues were the one reviewing EMG, the one with my response to their review and the one with the pics from Roseland.

The magazine has become a SHELL of its' former self. What a bunch of trash, falling all over themselves with Britney, Eminem, hip hop/gansta rap.

It's a sad state of affairs there.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:26:28 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

I thought it was named Rolling Stone in reference to Dylan's use of the term. I know I'm committing a sin when I say this, and I prepare to be slammed, but although I love the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper just freaks me out. I don't like the songs, mood, atmosphere, images, or anything about it. It gathers dust in my CD collection. That's my most humble opinion, however. Has anyone heard the new "Let It Be" yet?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:20:39 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

But why are the know nothings who write for RS any different than the the know nothings who vote for the Grammys?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:14:26 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

1. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Beatles

2. Pet Sounds, The Beach Boys

3. Revolver, The Beatles

4. Highway 61 Revisited, Bob Dylan

5. Rubber Soul, The Beatles

6. What's Going On, Marvin Gaye

7. Exile on Main Street, The Rolling Stones

8. London Calling, The Clash

9. Blonde on Blonde, Bob Dylan

10. The Beatles ("The White Album"), The Beatles



Rant to follow....

KC

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 12:13:55 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" Hey, it IS an magazine named after the Rolling Stones. "

Exactly Hoopsie , the ONLY reason Wenner named the magazine after the Stones was so that he could meet Mick Jagger .

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 11:48:23 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Hey, it IS an magazine named after the Rolling Stones. And the publisher (Jahn Wenner) couldn't even pronounce "Aja" correctly when SD was announced as an inductee into the Hall of Fame. And then consider that a number of critics dismiss "Aja" as being cold and antiseptic (I don't of course). First of all, there are different tastes, second of all, I bet you will find a Madonna album (or the like) higher up, and thirdly, these writers, many of whom have significantly less experience with SD's music, only have power because of the reading public's need to feel their opinion is justified. It's sorta like volunteery thought control.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 11:40:49 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, wrong place, right time? or the other way.

Someone should create a magazine for real music fans. Out of curiosity, what did they say were the top 10 "best" albums?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 11:40:06 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Someone should create a magazine for real music fans. Out of curiosity, what did they say were the top 10 "best" albums?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 11:30:18 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Screw them, RCray, let them roil in their own sediment. They have lost their souls. Time will vindicate us.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 11:26:36 ET
Posted by: rcray, nyu

um...Rolling Stone mag's new issue the greatest 500 albums of all time has AJA at 145.

Oh and by the way, that is the only Dan album that made the list.


What the Fuck is going on?

Are you fucking kidding me? Katy Lied, Pretzel, Thrill?????

I give up.

Long live the dan!!!!

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 10:09:57 ET
Posted by: Rajah ,

Carlock backing der Shtingle on the Victoria's Secret show? How messed up is that, jeez, I wonder what was going through his mind back there. Had to be chanting his latest mantra, "it's just a gig, it's just a gig, keep time bro it's just a gig." Either that or Schting promised him supermodel ack-shawn. I could forgive him for that. Oh what a world, I'm melting.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 08:57:40 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Raj; I knew that ;) ...lol

Anyone hear Ana Popovic vers of "Night by Night" saw it talked about on another forum I think she's a Axe Wielding Euro Blues Chick type ?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 08:44:59 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Hey Jim, the NY Times has an article on your former students today. Congratulations to you.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 08:36:46 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Piv - possibly you misread the post. I know TOP is not Quiet Storm. Being that we were posting extensively on the Quiet Storm yesterday, etc.

Firemop! Out Of The Loop rules the universe. Mike & Randy are connected to the street scene while still preserving REAL jazz roots. 'African Skies' has become a standard now, even Tyner plays it.

Mu - I don't like Last Nite because the horns were dubbed in, after the fact. What about the all acoustic Larry Carlton from the late 70s, Smiles and Smiles To Go?

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 08:17:42 ET
Posted by: Jon, @ his yellow stripe

I watched a little of the "fashion show" (strictly for its value as a sociocultural signpost!) and caught a Sting number.

Hard to believe this is the same guy who produced killer stuff in the 70s/early 80s. Absolute drivel.

Date: Thurs, November 20, 2003, 01:21:15 ET
Posted by: SouthOfHollywood, Here, There...

FYI...Keith Carlock just appeared with Sting on the Victoria's Secret fashion show on CBS...Nice gig indeed...SOH

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 22:14:38 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, home, at last this rainy evening

Oh, to be listening to "Squib Cakes" and "Oakland Stroke" while gliding onto the runway in Monterey. Then driving south, on hwy 1, to Carmel by the Sea....... what the hell, I can dream.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 21:19:52 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, East of Oakland

PQ- TOP could never be equated with "Quiet Storm" anything.

Current events link: The recent "scandal" about designer performance enhancing drugs focuses on a Bay Area based company (BALCO) whose owner supposedly for a while was a bassist for TOP. Have not had a chance to verify the reports independently...

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 21:13:09 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Raj- The Tower still goes gigs, I believe, at Konocti and Tahoe (recently hallowed by the presence of Steely Dan). A few years back they were doing county fairs here in NorCal -- saw them at the Solano Co Fair in Vallejo.
Not sure anyone noticed, but a while back Huey Lewis & the News was kind-of a whitened version of TOP (e.g. Hip to be Square = What is Hip?) and had the TOP horns on quite a few numbers.
Listening closely to TOP you can get a real appreciation for the under-utilized (and gut-punching) baritone sax. Check out "Soul Vaccination" -- and protect yo-self from Funky Pox!

Firemop - LOVE Joni's "Hissing." Better than Court and Spark -- which I gather she knew and seems kind-of bitter about how it was received. Sometimes will play Don't Interrupt the Sorrow three times in a row and marvel at the Jungian war-between-the-sexes she depicts. Jungle Line has parallels to 2vN, IMO.

Anima rising, so what?

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 20:16:31 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Rajah...us jazz monkeys enjoy quiet Quiet Storm R&B.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 19:53:13 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Q-ball: that was Greg Adams, longtime TOP trumpeter and horn arranger. I didn't think a jazz monkey like you got so funky. Even though TOP always protests it's a Soul band.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 18:47:10 ET
Posted by: Connie, in the vineyard

Tower of Power in playing in Ventura County 11/21. I have tickets to see them in Sonoma County 12/12.
Favs - Down to the Nightclub and You're Still a Young Man

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 18:35:22 ET
Posted by: fife, ontario

I enjoyed today:
Feelings-David Byrne
2vn- the more i hear it the more i love it
Back in the High Life-Steve Winwood
Security-Peter Gabriel
Comes a Time-Neil Young

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 18:29:59 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I remember one of the leaders of Tower of Power had a solo album with an ass kicking acid jazz song, Burma Road. What was his name, Johnny Adams? Something Adams.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 17:55:42 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" In the car changer -

1. Live SD
2. EMG
3. Live SD
4. Marillion - Misplaced Childhood
5. Blues Brothers - Briefcasefull of Blues
6. Bob & Brian (am dj's in town here) - Strange Load "

You make Joey smile .

Actually , EMG really IS a summer album . It HAS worked this fall and might even work this winter --
Developing ...................................

AJA works Anytime
Katy Lied -- Winter
Gaucho -- Winter / Spring
Royal Scam -- Fall
2VN -- Spring / Summer
Pretzel Logic -- Winter
Countdown to Ecstasy -- Summer / Fall
Can't Buy a Thrill -- Fall / Winter

Jacko !

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 16:48:30 ET
Posted by: Firemop, Dallas - Sunny & 72 degrees

In the changer today:

1. EMG
2. Citizen SD Disc 3
3. Pat Metheny Group Speaking of Now Live DVD Rip
4. Joni Mitchell - The Hissing of Summer Lawns
5. George Duke - Face The Music
6. Brecker Brothers - Out of The Loop

Just thought I would share...


-fm

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 16:47:13 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

What Is Hip and that other one, So Very Hard, just great. Then, You Got To Funkifize. Dats the shizzle in my nizzle, Pivotal one. And never be afraid to nuzzle the Rajah, we are very confortable in our masculinity (testosterone firestorm that it is).

Does the Tower still play in Oakland? I see them down here at some place waaay out in the valley, the Canyon Club. The ticket is like 75.00 but you get dinner and I sat like, four feet from the stage.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 16:24:53 ET
Posted by: The Woodman, Ottawa

On the CD player as we speak;

Harry Manx - Jubilee
Beautiful - Tribute to Gordon Lightfoot
Sarah McLaughlin's new one (sorry it's so new I forgot the name)
Roomful of Blues - The First Album
Chuck Berry - The Blues Album
Norah Jones

Gettin Jiggy with it babe!

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 16:16:43 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

In the car changer -

1. Live SD
2. EMG
3. Live SD
4. Marillion - Misplaced Childhood
5. Blues Brothers - Briefcasefull of Blues
6. Bob & Brian (am dj's in town here) - Strange Load

At work -

King Crimson - Live in Mexico circa '01
Marillion - Live in Milwaukee '87
T. Monk - Monk's Blues

KC

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 16:14:10 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, honorary East Bay Greaser

Pete, I have certain SD songs that appear "seasonal" to me. It sounds weird, but the whole Royal Scam album reminds me of fall, CBAT and Pretzel are more Winter-y, while Katy, 2VN, Gaucho and EMG are summer. Aja and Countdown are any time. It sounds nuts, and it has nothing to do with their release dates, but it's just a quirky thing with me.
Tower of Power is one of those bands you instantly feel better listening to if you're feeling down. Their music reminds me of the Monterey Peninsula, wish I were there now.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 15:46:50 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Rajah- Already knew you were a terrific guy -- but a Tower of Power fan, too!? If I were Joey you know what I'd suggest ...
I was actually born in Oakland, so I have the East Bay Grease in my veins (undoubtedly a health hazard).

Bump-de-bump-de-BUMP!

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 15:37:42 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Current listening, select cuts:

Have several "compilation" CDs of stuff from various sources that to me are almost all gems. I like jumping from say, Nana Mouskouri to Dire Straits to Joao Gilberto -- keeps you on your toes!

This week, selections that I'm listening to specially are:

- Wonderful Baby - Don McLean Sang this to my kids since they were infants purely from distant memory and finally reheard the recording only a year ago. (Had the lyrics about 90% correct). If you have kids it can make you cry... [mine are 10 and 14]

- White Bird - It's a Wonderful Day I'm sure most everyone knows this; I highly recommend a re-listen. It's a song and arrangement of quality and craft very close to SD. And such a special style. It's one of those songs that to me is much better heard after dark or on a gloomy day

BTW, there are a few SD songs that I've noticed I really like more if it's dark (I'm usually listening in the car). FM and TOOM are two immediate examples -- anyone else notice this??

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 15:11:09 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" (don't know if any of you remember the old F trains with the front of the cars cut on a slant...you New Yorkers can guess my age with that admission). "

57


JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ ! the Y !

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 14:56:50 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Oh, Q - Love the Mule (my daily Allman connection).

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 14:54:40 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

1- Doobies, Toulouse Street
2- Dave McKenna @ Maybeck
3- Joe Jackson, Night & Day
4- Tower of Power, the Hits
5- Nightfly by Lester

The Nightfly seems to always be there. It has to be one of the best sounding recordings ever. Twenty-one years old and it sounds as fresh as ever.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 14:46:07 ET
Posted by: Joey , C10,

I too have changed the contents in me Car CD Player :

1. Chris Rea " New Light Through Old Windows "
2. EMG ( Now on 347th listening )
3. Kama
4. Boz Scaggs " Silk Degrees -- 25th Anniversary Gold Edition "
5. Carol King's Greatest Hits
6. *** EDITED FOR CONTENT ***

Jacky !

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 14:10:19 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I have in the changer in my car today:

Government Mule, The Deep End Vol. 2
Tinsley Ellis, Kingpin
Lonnie Brooks Blues Band, Live At The Kingston Mines
Ivan Linds, I can't tell the title it's in Portugese
Big Mama Thornton, with Paul Griffin

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 13:01:22 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, sneaking out for latte "from Bombay to Santa Fe"

I have on a public radio station and they were playing one of the late Ian Dury's classics. I'm laughing so hard my co workers think I'm nuts. Don and Walt must have loved his lyrics.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 12:53:43 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Listening to:

Leonard Cohen, "Ten New Songs"
Miles Davis, "Kind of Blue"
Dave Brubeck, "Time Out"
SD, "Everything Must Go"
SD, "Two Against Nature"
Donald Fagen, "Alone At Last" (compilation of DF's CD singles and one-offs from circa 1980s through early 1990s created for me by the legendary Hb in 1993)

jim

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 12:47:02 ET
Posted by: Chai_latte, workin in the rain, too Gretchen

This is a day in serious need of some spicing up, so I have a blend of Santana on. At the moment, it's almost the end of OYE COMO VA, just having finished BLACK MAGIC WOMAN. Some excerpts of Supernatural and Shaman will be coming up.

Imagine me dancin, just like the front row of Roseland....

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 12:03:05 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, avoiding the rain and cold

What's everyone listening to today? I have on Savoy Brown. It's just that kind of day.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 10:18:18 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Beersy - "coming" down, as in downstage, mate. Naughty.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 09:42:33 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Raj; "fantasy scenario of Carolyn going down" *chuckle* me too LMFAO

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 01:39:49 ET
Posted by: Still Sparkin', China

Ithink Pixeleen, Blues Beach, Last Mall...to name three...are quite radio friendly and would notthink EMG sales suffered (are suffering) because there were few choices for programmers. Just seemed like a bigger buzz with the return of the band in 2000.

Date: Wed, November 19, 2003, 00:35:34 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Re: 2vN versus EMG

Like most, I think EMG is a better album overall, one big reason being it feels more spontaneous and "soulful." However, in listening lately to 2vN it does seem that one reason it's sold more may be that there are a few "commercial" cuts that are critical to getting some airplay and therefore moving units. Cousin Dupree, of course (it's hilarious and should not be dissed), as well as JOS, Janie and to some degree 2vN itself. Each seems more accessible to the non-Danophile. The EMG songs all require a little closer listening to "get it."

Of course, the sales differential could also be due to the novelty of a "New Dan Album" which was the case the 2vN -- and no longer with EMG.

Record company support is important, but not sure we can consider that the only reason for EMG's somewhat disappointing sales. Anyway, maybe EMG will sell big after it wins a buncha Grammys!!

(2vN the song is a personal fave and I think a great example of our heroes' talent -- really creative and energetic in a new vein for D&W. What exactly ARE they exorcising? I'm sure there must be some hidden meanings ... [please don't tell me it's a drug deal gone bad!])

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 16:55:06 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Royce is a true Tenor/Baritone and someone like him would be perfect for my fantasy scenario of Carolyn coming down and singing some leads, Donald, Walter, Herington and Carlock(if he's not replacing Charlie Watts by then)in the jazz quartet configuration, fewer horns. Donald can steer clear of the high stuff and play some piano for us.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 16:40:01 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, 7th Avenue

On the Royce Jones thread, he toured with SD in 1974. And since DF still was not all that wild about singing, Royce Jones often sang Midnite Cruiser and he always sang Any Major Dude. I must say that his stylings on those tunes sound very nice. That 1974 outfit was pretty damn good. Different from the SD we know and love today.

Lonnie

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 15:43:36 ET
Posted by: Spike's Moll, Kentuckt

I would love to hear Steely Dan do a cover CD of old Jazz standards. Like " As Time Goes By". I wonder if begging would be effective? lol

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 12:00:18 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Royce Jones provided vocals on Countdown to Ecstasy. He was also a vocalist for the band "Ambrosia." Aside from the mushy stuff, Ambrosia's Greatest Hits is worth picking up. The tracks "Life Beyond LA" and "Nice Nice Very Nice" are worth the price alone.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:58:27 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:47:48 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I remember his name on one album and I think it was Pretzel Logic. Not sure though.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:40:17 ET
Posted by: Buckey & Porkey,

Raj- What do you mean by "on record"? Do you mean Royce Jones was on a SD record? Or that he's "on record" playing live with them? The reason I'm asking is because I'm pretty sure he only toured with the band. Or maybe he was on some early SD records. Anyone know for sure? You know, I think I did see his name on the Royal Scam credits.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:35:15 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Raj; Royce sang lead on several numbers on that '74 pretzel logic tour see Memphis Blues ...

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:21:29 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I met Royce Jones this summer here in LA at a Pretzel Logic(a local SD tribute band) show. He was with his Dad, very nice guys both. He appeared on record with SD of course, and he did play with them at the Santa Monica Civic Center show in 1974, you know, the live Bodhi cut.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:21:13 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte, Still sippin and postin @ work

FIRST, A MIGHTY MIGHTY thanks to my fellow Dan bretheren and sisteren, for tolerating and in a few cases sympathising with my rant against Two Against Nature.

I played Everything Must Go non-stop yesterday...a solid 6 hours at work, probably got more work accomplished, not to mention 2 pretty damn good posts to this board, than with any other soundtrack.

IF the boys are nominated for a Grammy and they condescend to grace the boob tube with a performance, my vote for the song from EMG to perform would be Pixeleen, even though MY personal favs are Godwhacker and Things I miss the most.

I would also highly recommend that they run a film in the background a la Haitian Divorce from this year's tour. My pick for the leading lady would be somebody like Angelina Jolie. That's the image I got when listening to Pixeleen...Lara Croft on the top of a speeding F train (don't know if any of you remember the old F trains with the front of the cars cut on a slant...you New Yorkers can guess my age with that admission).

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 11:12:05 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Mu, Gretcholina, anybody...guarantee if you get Maxwell's Embrya it will be among your top 10 fave CDs, irrespective of genre, in a flash.

In my researches I have partially discovered that the perc. player Royce Jones toured with SD live in the 70s - anyone have info on this?

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 10:43:41 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Unfortunately, I've heeard little of maxwell's stuff, but he does have a Stevie Wonder/ Steely Dan/ Erykah Badu neo-soul thing going...I do like his sound... Tony, Toni, Tone is another neo-soul artist

except for naturally BET, music television and mainstream media of all sorts has played and covered very little of African-American artists, primarily pop or jazz, except for the Gloved One and certain rap "artists"...dumb questions - has Maxwell sold big numbers? any Grammys?


reminds me of how Urban and black pop music from the 80s couldn't sell, so some was packaged into Smooth Jazz (ex. James Ingram)...

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 10:41:11 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Midnight Cruiser and Dr. Wu echo each other melodically. So do Lunch With Gina and Countermoon with that funky stuff, check it out.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 10:40:28 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, dilligently at work, as always

Maxwell has a great sound, smooth, retro, and reminiscent of those 70's sounds I love from Marvin, Eddie Kendricks, and Curtis Mayfield. Definitely a great addition to the cd stack. Speaking of retro sounds, pick up "Can You Dig It? The 70's Soul Experience." A lot of the great soul tunes many of us grew up with.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 10:13:27 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

I believe you may be transposed ...

Rockwell is, the son of Motown founder Berry Gordy. His real name was Kennedy William Gordy, so I guess it's understandable why he changed it to Rockwell later on ...

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 09:29:48 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Leo, what are you talking about????? The contemporary R&B singer Maxwell has nothing whatsoever to do with Berry Gordy. What do you mean????? Read his bio at allmusic.com.

Hoops - sorry to wander off topic!

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 09:23:38 ET
Posted by: Russ,

Hoops,

I agree on the Midnite Cruiser/Dr. Wu similarity. In fact, when they played the opening chords in '96 for Midnite Cruiser, I leapt out of my seat because I thought they were going to play Dr. Wu. Little bit of a letdown there, but still I loved that version of MC. I thought Walter's vocals and timing were about a million times better than the original by Jim Hodder. And, when Walter played the chorus melody on his guitar at the end, I thought that was really quite beautiful.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 08:57:53 ET
Posted by: Leo,

"Maxwell is a very talented R&B singer"

Really Laina? I was under the impression that if Maxwell wasn't the son of Barry Gordy he never would have gotten a record deal in the first place. Do you think Michael Jackson would have sang on Maxwell's "one hit wonder" "Somebody's Watching Me" if it wasn't for "dad"?

Apparently not only wasn't anyone "watching" Maxwell...nobody seemed to be listening to him either.

Date: Tues, November 18, 2003, 04:37:56 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Not that Amazon reviews mean anything, but Maxwell's Embrya has the staggering record of 181 reviews...and all 181 gave 5 stars. I know of no other unanimous album.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 22:29:46 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

H; ...and I thought it was me. TvN really does have the oddest melodies...especially Gaslighting Abbie - more like 50s TV jingles...very heavy influence of 50s Miles and 60s Coltrane of TvN over a Stax backbeat...TvN grows with each listen, especially on DVD-A...

I found EMG more immediately accessible...a little more rock structure than TvN with 40s jazz/blues film noir melodies...there's been a little less to grow (given the live tracking and analog sound) with than TvN, but Pixeleen, Lunch With Gina, Title Track, and GreenBook are some of the most addictive Audio Crack they've ever concocted...

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 22:22:34 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Gretchen: Your post make Joey have a dark spot on his pants!!

PQ: Today, Carmel (1979?) would be pidgeonholed into "Smooth Jazz" because it sounds mellow - however, quite sophisticated

Larry Carton's "Sleepwalk" from 1982 indeed has the Smooth Jazz sound and structure, but I dig it...not quite as much as his live album (Last Nite?) a couple of years later (more traditional)...Carlton gives up his usual Gibson 335 for the Strat to great effect on the title track...

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 21:15:48 ET
Posted by: Laina, SLO

Maxwell is a very talented R&B singer, and Embrya is the title of an album of his.

I'll have to think about what songs I would like to see the Dan cover.

Lainalove

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 20:55:13 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Q - Who the hell are Maxwell's freakin Embrya!!?? For all I know, you could be makin' all this up, puto (nuzzles).

BTW, the Dave McKenna Live at Maybeck Hall is absolutely exquisite, piano played with BOTH hands directly to the people, how refreshing was that-- thank you.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 20:17:36 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

If I could humbly hazard what I know is going to be an unpopular opinion on this board, the best album eligible for 2000 was Maxwell's Embrya, period, the end! Nothing else even came close. The music, the polyphony, the metronomic hits, the vocals, the lyrics, one of the truly truly great love songs of all time (Each Hour Each Second Each Minute Each Day). I'm glad SD won but IMHO the voters were making up for the shameful fact that they had not given an award to SD in their 70s heyday. Anywho.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 20:08:49 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

To the very nice Surround people who posted:

What the f**k is Sting doing in there? Kidding.

But shouldn't there'd be separate categories for new music as opposed to re-issues?

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 19:59:40 ET
Posted by: Snake Mary, Gone To Bed

I've always taken Snake Mary to be his loveless witch of a wife whom he hates but sleeps next to him while she coldly dreams of being in Detroit (!) with lots of money in the bank (she doesn't sound too horny if that's what she dreams about). I picture her fat and with curlers. Kinda explains why the guy in the song jerks off with Rose Darling. I love it, a love ballad written for one's hand.

I like the line "The clock is close at hand." Sure it would be, since it would be on the night stand or something, next to the bed.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 19:54:04 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Mu - I wonder. George Duke's A Brazilian Love Affair, Lee Ritneour's Rit and Rit2, Larry Carlton's Dreamwalk, Joe Sample's Carmel, Steve Khan's albums with Eyewitness, these are all from the late 70s. And they're all

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 19:50:08 ET
Posted by: Abu2, Although I could be wrong

RD is about getting a "hand"le on things. But,who is Snake Mary? His conscience,perhaps?

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 19:33:34 ET
Posted by: Surround Music Awards,

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031117/nym190_1.html

Looks like a commerical magazine has made up an awards event. SD gets one nod and Df another.

The nominees for the 2nd Annual Surround Music Awards are:

BEST MADE-FOR-SURROUND TITLE
Surrounded; Tipper [5.1 Entertainment/Myutopia Records]
Halloween; Frank Zappa [DTS Entertainment]
Sacred Love; Sting [Universal/A&M Records]
Everything Must Go; Steely Dan [Warner Bros.]
Producers Cut<; Emmylou Harris [Warner Bros.]

BEST MENU DESIGN
Surrounded; Tipper [5.1 Entertainment/Myutopia Records]
Etterna; Emma Shapplin [DTS Entertainment]
Trilogy-Live in Berlin; The Cure [Eagle Rock Entertainment]
The Globe Sessions; Sheryl Crow [Universal/A&M Records]
Kamakiriad; Donald Fagan [Warner Bros. (Reprise)]


To register online for the Surround Music Awards Ceremony and the Surround 2003 conference program, please visit www.surroundpro.com.

Presented by United Entertainment Media (UEM), a CMP Information company, the annual Surround Conference is the premier, international networking and education opportunity for engineers and producers on the leading edge of the surround sound revolution. Professionals attend Surround 2003 to share ideas and techniques, and to immerse themselves in the latest technologies presented by showcase exhibitors.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 18:37:51 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

MC is definitely an early version of Dr. Wu., musically speakin. The verses have the same feel, almost a recitation, very intimate and personal. MC had to be a youthful composition; by the time they got around to Dr. Wu, they really knew how to bring a hook home.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 18:24:39 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Regarding "Midnight Cruiser"
I have to agree it could be improved (hey, remember SD was trying to write an additional verse for '96 as part of context at sd.com?). However, at least '96, both MC *and* "Rikki..." had a dynamic that plodded a touch more than they should have. Maybe it was the tempo, maybe it was too much going on...I'm not sure. But I don't think it's the vocals that are the problem in themselves . BTW: Am I the only one who hears a foreshadowing in melody MC of the "Dr Wu?" Maybe it's the key or ambience but there melodies are like cousins during the verses.

Elvis Costello covering "Kings"
Elvis has made some really dumb comments about SD through the years. I'll pass on this cover.

Tom Jones covering "Monkey In Your Soul"
LOL! I LOVE IT!

"Two Against Nature"
2vN and Kamakiriad were the two SD or solo albums that I didn't like right off the bad. I found they quite oblique. By contrast, the ABC/MCA albums, plus "Nightfly" and 11TOW were instantly likeable for me, although I'm still unraveling them all.

But with 2vN (and Kama) I had to warm up to them and learn them. That said, in the past two-three weeks, I've been listening to 2vN more than even EMG. For one thing, I think most of the songs on 2vN don't sound as much as other SD songs. It's definitely a different kinda album. When 2vN came out, a lot of people said (self included) said that 2vN picks up where "Gaucho" left off. I don't agree with that as much now. I have have to agree that I was surprised at the 2vN version of "Jack of Speed." I think Walter's rocked a lot more and was more bluesey. If they had Walter do lead vocals on a track on 2vN as he did on EMG, that's the one he should have done. I love DF's version but I also love WB's version. DF's is so low key. In some ways, given Kama and 11TOW, I can't help but wonder if maybe DF was calling a bit more of the production shots on 2vN while Walter maybe had more pull on EMG (??????????) 2vN is so much more a tight, colder, and clinical sounding album than EMG.

I think it is likey that 2vN got Grammy "Album of the Year" because at least a portion of people wanted to honor the career of SD. (Let's also remember, as much as we love SD, who says the majority Grammy voters voted for 2vN?) BUT I think it is wrong to imply that 2vN wasn't worthy of being Album of the Year. Compared to the other competition, it was by far the best crafted, well-thought out and most intelligent album. Maybe only Beck's rivaled it in creativity.\

As for "Almost Gothic," what an amazing song. There was that blurb last spring about DF working with Carole Bayer Sager. Well, consider that AG is Steely Dan meets Burth Bacharach. (Been discussed before in fact..)

And the title track and "Negative Girl," are two really dense tracks which I've found don't appeal to a lot of people right off the bat but a lot of musicians sure love both. I find that as I get more into those two, there really is so much happening. They both are really tightly packs nuts that can be hard to crack. I don't think there is any other SD song quite like 2vN. It's really a different direction. As for "Cousin Dupree" being "lightweight," what's wrong with a straight-a-head rock-and-roll song, that is wickedly funny. By those standards, "Rikki...," "Monkey In Your Soul..." and "The Fez" are lightweight. In fact, they are just what the situ calls for. "Dupree" is perfect.

I know we discussed it a while back, but if you haven't bought the DVD-A of "Kama" do so! It is a real revelation even if you just have a plain DVD player in your computer.

Great conversations. I'm just sitting back and reading a lot more for a while. Thanks for all the thought you guys put into these.

jim

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 17:37:08 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" I always had a bit of trouble getting into Almost Gothic - "like the slickest song I've ever heard" isn't necessarily a compliment. "

I don't know Bill , Vegas ain't all THAT bad .


Joey !

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 16:51:24 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Bill - Interesting transpositions on Walter's Midnight Cruiser, so that's what I'm hearing, thanks for zooming in. The melody line is just waay snaky-sophisticated but alas the chorus is almost mundane. This song comes so very close to being a classic SD tune but falls just short due in great part to it. Wasn't this one on Android Warehouse?

Now 2vN was indeed great from the first playing but it was not what I expected. The old Dan went pooof and the new Dan was, well, a steam-powered sexual aid of a different color.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 15:44:43 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

I need to go against the flow here and say that I loved 2vN from the first hearing up through Cousin Dupree, which was and remains the weakest of their post-Gaucho songs in my book, but if you look at Amazon review you'll see that opinions vary widely about hte best and worst tracks. The complexity and funkiness of Gaslighting Abbie, the vivid storytelling and infectious slow groove of What A Shame About Me (the first one I heard on the radio in the car, almost drove off the road!), the polyrhythmic bite and voodoo wordplay of the title track, the classic SD sound of Jack of Speed, the amazing ensemble work of Negative Girl, the hot solos in West of Hollywood (Walter included) are all first rate. Yes, the drumming is a bit repetitive and minimalist, but I think EMG shows they have moved beyond that metronome fixation that dominated Kama, 11TOW and 2vN. I always had a bit of trouble getting into Almost Gothic - "like the slickest song I've ever heard" isn't necessarily a compliment. Over all I think it's a great CD and worthy successor to Gaucho, but EMG has slightly stronger material and a warmer, live feel.

By the way, when Walter sang Midnight Cruiser, they transposed the verses UP to Em from Dm but transposed the choruses down from D to G. I loved his version, much better than Hodder's.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 15:01:15 ET
Posted by: Gretch-o-lina, I kind of like that name

I think if the boys had to play live at the Grammy's, Gina or Pixeleen would be damn good. Either would be lively, dancable, and sexy.
I agree that "Stuck in the middle with you" would be fantastic covered by SD. Can't you just hear Don with the "Pleee eeee eee eez..."

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:49:47 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Pass the bottle, Gretch-olina, cause Steely-ding-dong-daddy don't live in that rock n roll city no more. Personally, as long as I stay away from the old photograph albums, I still feel young. Oh yeah, here's a tip to getting older with dignity: get rid of all mirrors in the house.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:45:08 ET
Posted by: angel,

Hey Gretchen: No worries, we were not insulted by your being so antisocial during Roseland. ;-)
I think we were all totally in awe of being RIGHT THERE in front of Donald. I don't know what the feeling was on Saturday, but Friday was definitely one of shock and amazement.

Lots of wishing here, but if EMG ends up being nominated and if the dynamic duo felt like playing for an audience (yeah, right), which tune do you think would work the best for such a overproduced show with a mostly young audience? After thinking about this quite a bit, this past weekend, my choice would be "Lunch With Gina". It is topical and deals with a situation that can turn up on their radar. I think it is also something the kids can relate to a bit better then "Cousin Dupree" ;-)
It is a dancing kind of tune and Keith adds that extra dimension to the number, oh and Donald has proven that he can easily sing it in concert....

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:43:43 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, basketball jones

Nice Kajagoogoo reference there Raj. You are a worldly one.


Cover song - Stuck in the middle with you. They seem to get labeled with that song by many, might as well put their touch on it. Don could just drip sarcasm all over it.

Though many of us were all gung ho on 2vN from the get go, I think we all had a little lump in our throat in the thought of 'Where did MY Steely Dan go? This doesn't sound like RS, Aja or Gaucho. Waaaaa.'
It was good, that was for sure, but it wasn't IT. Danfiend set me straight when she said, "we've had 20+ years to listen and absorb the other ones, give this one a chance and it will happen also." Truer words have never been spoken. As an example I skipped over Negative Girl virtually everytime I played the disc until sometime last year (2 years later) and now that is one of my top five songs from them.

Enough out of me.

KC

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:31:39 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, dreaming of California

C'mon, Raj you're not old! You're as young as your mind allows. I, for one, would never, ever want my 20's back, and most of my 30's either. I'm much more comfortable and at ease at 40 than at any other age. Some of us late bloomers have to grow into ourselves. However, if I ever get a copy of "Modern Maturity" in the mail, it will be used for kindling. This segment has been sponsored by Geritol.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:20:54 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Too Chai-chai, 2vN was a shock. It was a shock to hear them so grown up and accessible. The 18 new songs we have from them reflect a shift away from rock and toward more adult themes. It's as natural as that subtle shift toward conservativism as we get older. We stop playing word games so much, we are much more direct in our communication with other people. So we've lost our old Steely Dan, and just like our youth, returns only in our memories, just like the old Dan returns everytime they play the old songs. There's no going back except for those brief momments like Roseland, the Gorge or Universal when the old ghosts wander abroad for a bit. And, of course, when we take out the old vinyl and slap that needle down.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:12:39 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Chai, I can attest to the "musical orgasm" phenomenon. (Roseland Ballroom, 9/12/03, dreamy version of "Home at Last"). I fear I was a little antisocial during that show, I was so fixed on watching the master at his craft. It was like a dream sequence. When Donald came back out for the second set in the white shirt, I nearly swooned. Being that close to him was as close to nirvana as I have ever been. Donald Fagen is better than sex.
Truthfully, I'm thankful for the return of SD with Two Against Nature, but I don't get the same emotion from it as I do with all of the other albums.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 14:00:12 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte, Sippin and postin

Well, Gretchen
I see besides the weather, we have two other things in common, the love of Aja and Royal Scam. Yes, 20 years of listening to Aja and Royal Scam had me longing for something in that vein, but I wasn't naive enough to believe that the new release (2VN) would be 1980 all over again.

I WAS fortunate enough to have seen the Dan in 1996 and they played "Jack of Speed" during the Holmdel show with the info that it was going to appear on the soon to be released (Yeah, right) album. The vibes from that tune sounded just like the Steely tunes I loved. So I endured the long foreplay of a four year wait for 2VN to be released, blew off work on that February 29th, just so I could get my hands on that album. I even boosted my daughter's CD player so I could listen to it in my ancient car on the drive home from Sam Goody. You can't imagine the disappointment listening to 2VN was for me. And I played it over and over, desperately trying to fall for it. Not even close, so there's no cigar Don & Walt. So I went back, in the way back machine, bought the Remastered Aja, Scam, Gaucho. Dusted off The Nightfly and Kamakiriad and waited for the 2VN tour dates to go on sale.

Can't have been just me, 'cause the set list in 2000 was chock full of Scam, which thrilled me to no end. I remember a post on the SD web page using the phrase "a musical orgasm" and I swear that girl must have been at the same concert as me!!!

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 13:13:37 ET
Posted by: Gretchen , former english nerd

I only hope (or is it hope only?)he liked the infamous scarf. For me, in '03, 52nd Street was definitely the junction.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 13:09:46 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Things Our Gretchen Loves About Donald:

The talk
The sex
Low slung boxer shorts
The classy GQ
The back and forth lurch
His terminal slouch
These are the things...
She loves...
The most

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 13:07:26 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, not trying to monopolize the blue

Another one I'd like to see covered is "The Bottle" by Gil Scot Heron.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 13:04:59 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

It may be interesting to see what others would like Don and Walt to cover, if they ever decided to undertake that project. I'm thinking "Too High" by Stevie Wonder, which Don could perform miracles with. Any thoughts?

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 12:45:31 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, contemplating the gray and drear of southern CT

You know what I would love Steely to do a cover of? "Red Streamliner" by Little Feat. It would be exquisite with their twist.

Rajah, alas, I'm not a g-string kind of girl, and that scenario you pose freaks me out a bit. Don's too dignified, and I like boxers anyway. Nelly is the dude that did, "It's getting hot in here......"

A song that comes to mind regarding Keith Carlock as Sting's drummer is Nils Lofgren's "Keith Don't Go."

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 12:26:23 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Gretch - is Nelly the guy with the Band-aid? Or is that Sisqo?
But seriously, I know that your love for Donny Dark could never be eclipsed by the latest favorite flavor. You're loyal that way and we love you for it. BTW, do you have any interest in a candid set of polaroids of Don in a poka-dot g-string dancing to TLC when they were hot? I thought you would.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 12:25:13 ET
Posted by: Gret, craving a chocolate Chai Latte

Before 2VN was released, I had visions of Aja and Royal Scam dancing in my head, only more mature, jazzy versions of the heartbreakingly beautiful classics. Upon listening to 2VN for the first time, I was perplexed, as was a close danhead friend of mine. It just didn't sound like our Steely Dan. Don's voice sounded echo-y, distant, and the musical arrangements more high tech, spacey, futuristic. I admit, I had to listen repeatedly and then view the PBS special to connect with it. When I saw Don and Walt performing, I warmed to the album immediately, and it became a staple of the cd changer. I think I didnt realize that 20 years makes a huge difference in style, and my view of SD was static. However, EMG is more accessable and more reminiscent of the Dan of old, while introducing a heavier jazz influence. When I heard the first Coltrane inspired notes of the title track, I thought, oh, yes I truly hope this is a sign of things to come. I have EMG right up there with Aja and RS, and it's proof that Donald and Walter are no sell outs. They still have the upbeat, sophisticated style they had in the early years, perhaps more fine tuned. I'll always love Don's million dollar words.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 12:05:25 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, nurturing my ADHD

Rajah, you left out Nelly's version of Pixeleen!

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 12:03:23 ET
Posted by: Chai Latte w/2 shots of vanilla, Work - In the Green Room

My sentiments about work EXACTLY, Gretchen...So on this drab, grey New Jersey day, I have decided to summon up the courage to post a little heresy:

Anybody besides me willing to consider the possibilty that Everything Must Go might not have sold as well as Two Against Nature for this unspoken reason:

Two Against Nature (with the exceptions of Jack of Speed & What A Shame About Me) was a HUGE HUGE disappointment of a long awaited album to me, as a major Steely Dan Fan. If it hadn't been for the streaming of EMG (and my ability at work to hear the stream), I wasn't going to break my neck to buy EMG just because it was Steely's latest.

Don't get me wrong, or e-mail the Godwhacker and put a hit on me, I was happy as a clam that 2VN won the Dan all those grammies, but frankly, I think it was based on the body of their work more than 2VN.

And I THANK the boys, from the bottom of my fickle heart, for going back into the studio and producing the GEM that is Everything Must Go, as Lunch with Gina plays in the background....

And I also THANK the boys, from the bottom of my dancing feet, for coming out to tour this year.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:57:17 ET
Posted by: Beers, leaving for home at last

Warning - New Cassandra Wilson "Glamoured" ... does things to you ooooooooh yes

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:52:38 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

I'm kind of assuming Carolyn will have her own gigs and won't be able to be back up anymore. She appears to me to be the next young jazz diva, a la Diana Krall, and rightly so. Beautiful voice, and inspiring stage presence.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:51:39 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Gretchen's "Shake Dat Asz" SD tribute album:

1-Monkey, Tom Jones
2-Glamour Profession, Julio Iglesias, Jr.
3-Do It Again, Rikki Martin
4-Josie, Dave Gahan
5-Time Out of Mind, Ashton Kutcher
6-Gaucho, George Michael
7-I Got the News, Ryan Seacrest

You get the picture.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:37:55 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it again

Pretzel Logic ... Van Morrison - now I'd buy that "Love to touurrrrr the southlands with travelling minstrellllll showwwwwwwww" Van phrasing the phasing out of it man ... All this thought and not a drink in sight YET LOL

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:22:26 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, cracking myself up

I'd like to see Tom Jones do "Monkey In Your Soul." God, I cannot seem to focus on my work today!

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:21:02 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Don of course should sing the song. Carolyn would give it her diamond-hard angelic rendering and that too would be brilliant. I wonder how many SD tunes Carolyn could do justice to? Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass if she sang a bunch of tunes? Shove Don's rigg (give him a baby-grand) over stage left and bring her down to her own mike. Get rid of two horn players and the singers (sorry Callie). Stop with the KC, FM, Old School, 19 and force Walter to play bass. Get Herrington some help -McCracken or Parks. Make it smaller, stay out of the outdoor sheds.

If they would just ask for my advice everything would be A-OK!

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:20:38 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Mebbe it's time for the guys to pull in a few guest singers ... Re do the whole CBAT with Guest Vocals ...

Do it Again ... Boz Scaggs
Dirty Work ... Cassandra Wilson
Kings ... Elvis Costello
Midnight Cruiser ... Paul Weller


that sort of thang ......any more for

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 11:14:08 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

J: As I undertand it, Prince thinks he's Mozart and never edits...our boys on the othe rhand are more like Beethoven constantly editing, twisting, turning, refitting...


Beer: In the Dallas show JH nearly burned the mutha down on KidC and DTMA....In fact, his KidC was the best live I've heard and maybe better than Carlton's - at least that night...having Carlock dance around the solo really helped IMO



early Spyrogyra or Jeff Lorber WaterSign - you could make an argument that those are somewhere in the same circle on our musical Venn diagrams...


Sade, Prefab Sprout, Danny Wilson, China Crisis, and Anita Baker's Rapture are the best of the Dan-influenced 80s pop. Anita had the best band, Sprout the best songs and engineering, Danny Wilson in their debut the most imaginative production, Sade's vocals blended well with the horns...but no, not the same...

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 10:59:08 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, work

Raj, who do you think should sing it? Don? Or would a female voice do the song more justice? My vote is Don. Big surprise, huh?
Has anyone seen "The Station Agent?" Very quirky, and a good story, definitely worth checking out.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 10:34:32 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Midnight Cruiser has never been done well. The vocalist on the album, is it Hodder, is very weak and whiny. Walter's live version is, well, that's Walter's voice, nuff said. Hodder gives a dopey reading, Walter's version is transposed down. There's a better version waiting to be heard of this little gem, what great guitar dynamics coming out of the choruses.

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 10:14:30 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

Beers' - I disagree, I think JH would be fully capable of pulling it off. Sure, his major is in tasty jazz licks but I think with the proper motivation, say chain him down and pipe Hendrix, Zeppelin, Van Halen and AC/DC into his headphones 24/7 for about 2 weeks, he would transcend into a serious rock and roll minor.

KC

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 06:34:41 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

These categories are elusive. For example, I have never met anybody who could adequately explain to me how SD's music is different in category from, or at a different level of sophistication than, say, Spyro Gyra's. (Relax - not Kenny G, not George Benson after This Masquerade, not Sade, not most of the 'smooth' people).

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 03:43:19 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Bwaysteve/KC ... With you on this - A real let rip solo rocker please... AND GW was on the right glide path, BUT Herrington ain't the guy for the rip snortin' solo (ducks) Or is it the set up he uses ?

Howabout they remake CBAT for the modern day - Would love to hear Midnight Crusier reborn ... one more time Let your madness run with mine?

Date: Mon, November 17, 2003, 01:00:55 ET
Posted by: J de Siecle,

The whole pigeonholing in the horrific smooth jazz / adult contemp. category really not so disturbing – it’s a long artistic tradition to have great works that are highly popular / palatable on a commercial level while possessing multiple layers of complexity and accomplishment … think of Shakespeare – Dickens – Gershwin – Tex Avery cartoons …

And re: Prince – in light of earlier discussions on fantasy collaborations, it would be fun to see what would happen in a Prince/Becker/Fagen collab. Obviously there would be tremendous ego clashes, however, if you consider that Prince is an amazing writer & arranger but his greatest shortcoming is utterly abysmal and frequently sappy lyrics… well, imagine one of his dense, quasi-cacophonous productions combined with Donald & Walter’s truly brilliant lyrics and musical sophistication . It could be amazing.

p.s. As a Prince tangent, I don’t know if anyone else has discussed this, but I’ve always considered the Prince line in 1999, released a few years after Aja, of “I was dreaming when I wrote this/ So sue me if I go too fast” was a tip of the hat to Deacon Blues (“I cried when I wrote this song/ Sue me if I play too long”)

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 23:15:12 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean,

Bway - Great idea, in my opinion also. I think they 'almost got there' on Godwhacker, alot of 'drive' on that one. I think with Carlock and Herington they would easily be able to pull it off.

KC

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 22:43:10 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, hallucinating

I actually would like Steely Dan to become maybe a weentsy bit more of a rock band for at least one more song before I die.In my opinion it would not be going backwards.It could be a refined kick-ass rock song and a truly high moment of a future show.It is at the top of my wishlist for the future.How would a " not as jazzy " Steely Dan song
be recieved ?

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 21:38:04 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, by the sea

Lonnie, thank you for the compliments. Been away all weekend and this is the first chance to check the "blue". So many interpretations of this song, as with all others. But that's the beauty of SD, they have their own interpretations, and let us have ours. That's why we love them and they always sound fresh. Same with the debate as to are they rock, pop, or fusion. Pivotal Pete, I'm sure I'll be quite pleased with Don's solo effort when it is released. He seems to be the moody, atmospheric guru with the moving chords, etc. while Walt provides most of the "snarkasim." I've listened to 11 TOW so many times, I came to this conclusion, finally. Nightfly and Kami are jazzier and upbeat while 11 TOW encourages you to "groove" when you're down in the dumps. D and W are just a perfect fit. Now if I could just find mine.............

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 20:15:13 ET
Posted by: Whomever,

I would agree that Clear Channel, Infinity Broadcasting and the other Radio&Records moguls enabled by the RIAA has stifled creativity and extending the ideas of greats such as SD by pre-packaging and pigeonholing Prince has been an easy foil with the Symbol/Artist/Slave thing, but he was dead on in principle...and can't blame him for marketing and releasing his albums on his own. Controversy, 1999, Rain, Parade (underrated), Sign all featured innovate stuctures & ideas...a great Artist

...yeah, I find this mµtation of greatness into such banal categories ironic and sad...it's not even a product of the 80s or 90s - George Clinton wasn't so impressed when Parliament/Funkadelic was sliced, diced, and Xeroxed into Disco...

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 20:14:23 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Dee boyz DanSteely disguised as rock band opened us up to jazz. They are the ultimate gateway drug.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 17:54:40 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Cruel, or Artist, whatever your name is - no, I just haven't listened to Believe It in a long time so the song titles are a little swampy in my mind.

Actually Prince, along with Maxwell, is one of the few artists IMHO who can produce pop music equal to Steely Dan's.

I agree too that SD's main influence has been on Smooth and Wave formats, however it is most unfortunate that this type of music has evolved into the pathetic type of thing the people at Broadcast Architecture write instruction manuals about (see billevanssax.com, click on Vans Joint icon). There are actually people who classify Steely Dan as a rock and roll band!???!!

You make a good point about the Cole Porter revolution; unfortunately it did not, and will not, happen. It took the long long period of silence and inactivity for people to regard Steely Dan that way. In the 70s they were miscategorized as a "rock group."

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 17:30:49 ET
Posted by: Cruel,

you may be thinking about Holdworth's 1/32 note runs near the end, Artist had a similar sound but style was far more Hendrix than Holdsworth...

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 17:20:08 ET
Posted by: Birth of the Cruel,

Steely Dan is the apex of jazz-rock fusion in a pop format...bizarrely, they became a huge influence for smooth jazz and Wave format rather than a post-modern Cole Porter creative explosion


Fred is the tightest jazz-rock instrumental out there...bizarrely, it became a huge influence on NPR themes and "acid-jazz" rather than a Revolution that would have snatched the crown from the Jester (Wynton Marsalis)...can't say it sounds like anything in Artist's catalog... Isn't Snake Oil is the first song on Believe It? Anyway, the unison guitar and keyboard theme on Wildlife became classic Diminuitive One from Purple Rain, Parade, to Diamonds & Pearls...

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 16:01:11 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean,

Ok, Dr. Wu, but which show(s) were you at? Maybe I've just been in some sort of vortex..



KC

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 15:40:20 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

OK, the lawsuit against J. Lo by Maureen Marder over the Flashdance baloney is a good example of what the scrambling of the lyrics in Pixeleen may be meant to represent.

Artist Formerly Known as Prince: Was it Wildlife, or was it Fred, the leadoff song on Believe It?

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 15:31:21 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

PQ: 350 years later - Royal Scam (for subversive perspective)

OR

You could Burn a CD with tangential holiday ambience to subversion :

IGY
Snowbound
Charlie Freak (sleigh bells)
Book of Liars
Brooklyn
(We Two) Kings
Home at Last
Maxine

(for the Snowbirds)
Walk Between Raindrops
Florida Room

(finishing the set with a seque into an envigorating Part Deux of the show)
Teahouse on the Tracks



If you skip Black Friday, Katy Lied or EMG SOUND more holiday-like, though I can find no lyrical link...

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:56:51 ET
Posted by: Doctor Wu,

Kid Clean - no, it was Gaucho.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:56:28 ET
Posted by: Doctor Wu,

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:39:23 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Q - it should be obvious to you. Brooklyn (Owes the Charmer...) and Daddy Don't Live in That NYC No More. Put em on a loop with Toodle-oo sandwiched betweeen em.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:28:56 ET
Posted by: fife, ontario, canada

What about "Godwacker" just edit in turkey for God. What do you think?

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:19:32 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Broklyn

On a slightly different topic, what Dan CD is good to play in a theater during the intermission of a play? I have been assigned to play Big Turkey in our local Thanksgiving holiday production of "Squonto and Samoset Meet The Pilgrims" and am in charge of ambience too.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 14:12:50 ET
Posted by: TheArtistFormerlyKnownasTheArtistFormerlyKnownasPrince, Purple Daze

Oh yeah? I built my entire career around Wildlife from Tony Williams' Believe it and neither Mr. Williams' estate nor Mr. Jarrett are getting a dime of...uhhhh... Royalties from me!

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 11:07:14 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

No, we certainly cannot compare Jarrett and Don as pianists. Don could not carry Jarrett's candelabra, no, but I feel about Jarrett like I do about Miles: gifted vituosos of the 20th century who just had the crappiest attitude and gave awful interviews. Maybe greatness begets prickliness.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 09:41:52 ET
Posted by: Keith Jarrett, alpha omega

If you listen carefully to my work, you'll hear every melody ever written. Why go on? ...oh, from the sound of pop music today I guess you haven't...

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 09:00:57 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I must say it's a little disquieting to read an artist of Keith Jarrett's status being knocked. Let's not lose our perspective here. The guy is, by every standard, by every consensus, by every possible measuring rod you want to use, considered to be one of the greatest musicians and composers of the 20th-early 21st century.

I mean, the guy is even listed on the fucking Johann Sebastian Bach homepage as having made the preferred recordings for serious students of some of Bach's works. Come on! Let's not drift too far out of our league now.

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 01:44:12 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean,

Hey Dr., welcome. Not getting picky but are you refering to Babylon Sisters from this tour and not Gaucho? I don't recall seeing that song on any of the set lists.

Questioning DF's chops came up a few months back. I think the end result was he's a damn good player in his own right. There were comparisons between him and Jarrett and it's like apples and oranges. Neither could fill the others shoes at what they do.

KC

Date: Sun, November 16, 2003, 00:46:18 ET
Posted by: Doctor Wu,

Interesting that you all are talking about Gaucho. To be honest, I really wasn't that into the tune that much until this past summer, especially after seeing SD on tour. Now its one of my favorites as it was played so incredibly well by our good friends D & W, in fact probably one of the best tunes of the night.

Typical SD tunes are full of mystery and metaphor, but quite honestly, this is one that, when listening closely, really is quite simple to decipher (as you all have done so well). I took time on a cross-country flight from LA to NJ recently (4+ hours for those who have had the pleasure) to listen to some good SD and try to figure out some of the stories they are trying to tell. I must have played Gaucho about 5 times because frankly, I just love to listen to it.

Piggybacking on the Gaucho discussion, I also like the Glamour Profession as it is a very interesting story about a guy who has all the stars hooked on his drugs, and he just hangs in the background and watches them live their high profile, fast and rich life. He knows that they will be coming back for more, and he will keep helping them destroy themselves.

Ok - forgive me for bringing this up already, but I have SD withdrawal bigtime. Tell me friends, is this it?? Please tell me its not for I need to see these guys live again some day. After EMG, they clearly still have what it takes.

-Doc Wu

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 21:42:23 ET
Posted by: Still Sparkin', China

Before you all leave the Gaucho thread.....what can the line 'try again tomorrow ' mean ? Excuse me if this has already been suggested, but the narrator to me sounds like he's in show business (or on the fringes) and he's hooked up with this young talent who doesn't know the game too well yet. 'We've got heavy rollers' = money men...guys with power and influence in Hollywood. Try again tomorrow means something like 'get your act together, we'll be back here (custerdome) some other time, and let's hope by then you're not such an idiot around important people.
'Just when I say boy you can't miss' refers also to the stardom thing...probably good looking young aspiring actor. But it wouldn't have to be mainstream Hollywood, either. Maybe the whole thing is about gay porn films.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 21:22:44 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Maybe DF knows his limitations just like WB does. Don played great piano on Marian MacPartland's radio show, really knocked a few tunes out nicely in the jazz quartet format. It's a different kettle of fish on tour with SD. He has his hands full singing and remembering those crazy lyrics.

More and more I don't think we'll ever see the DF underneath the SD mantle, so to speak, until he tours with bass, guitar and drums.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 21:19:24 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, Custer's last stand

Great discussion. Lot's of different takes on seemingly the same theme. I think I have yet another little twist to add. It ties in a little to Pivitol's story line and I see the narrator as the club owner. However, the guy that brings in the Gaucho is not his lover but his 'supplier'. He's done great in the past, "Boy we can't miss
You are golden", but then he brings in the Gaucho and "then you do this". Perhaps the supplier is smitten with the Gaucho himself and is trying to do the Gaucho a favor by getting him in the door. "One more expensive kiss off" is in reference to having to pay back his customers because there's no entertainment tonight. He has a very elite clientele, "heavy rollers" and his supplier should know that. This is a first class establishment and the likes of him won't be allowed in. The rest of the song is giving us the visual of the owners head shaking disbelief that he even brought the Gaucho along, he keeps on asking, in different ways, what the hell were you thinking? That's my $0.02.

KC

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 20:10:41 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, um-cha-baka-loom-pa

It was fascinating watching Fagan "piece" into a groove.It was almost annoying, watching his waiting for just the right sixteenth, crisply executing a triad stab and then hanging back.I was wanting HIM to groove rather than being just a part of it.After each one there was almost a look of relief on his face. It seemed a lot more like work than play.

I learned so much from being that close to the Roseland stage.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 15:40:10 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Javier- Interesting thoughts on the Gaucho stereotype. On further reflection I guess the Gaucho character in the song (subconsciously) evokes the term "gay caballero" that you hear a lot -- not sure of the origin of that phrase.

Mu- Thanks for the list. Will listen more closely to those. Seems the brevity of that list and other posts brings several conclusions:
1- The guy is a rhythm and chord wizard. Chords are the foundation of SD music and he'd definitely "the man" on those.
2- He can definitely do the solo thing (as I say, the LWG solo to me is excellent), but it has not been his focus.
3- Whatever he does, Gretchen will find it irresistable!

(He may look like Ray Charles, but that economical style of play in the band seems more Basie-like ...)

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 14:55:38 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

He's a lurching, hunching be-bop boogie machine.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 14:44:08 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu ,

Do it Again (organ)
Fire in the Hole (piano - upright?)
Turn That Heartbeat Over Again (organ)
Razor Boy (sorta)
My Old School (sorta - upright?)
Your Gold Teeth I (plastic organ)
Home At Last (blues harp synth
IGY (blues harp synth)
Green Flower Street (synth)
Century's End (blues harp synth)
On the Dunes (piano - outtro)
Teahouse on the Tracks (before the horn solo)
Godwhacker (return of the blues harp synth)
Green Room (midithing trading with WB)
Lunch With Gina (midithing)


query: musicians - what is the plastic sounding keyboard used to excess on Kamakiriad?

He uses the Rhodes and keys as a rhythm instrument often in studio as well, especially contrapuntal to other instruments or vocals (ex. What a Shame About Me, Trans-Island Skyway, bridge on Tomorrow's Girls))

Yes, he's got a Monk thing going on in concert ..love how hunches and lurches around stage)

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 14:16:10 ET
Posted by: Javier Moreno, Thela Gun Jeet Heet

It's funny. I never considered the song "Gaucho" as a gay story till I read the comments in Oleander's page and in Brian Sweet's book. Gaucho is the name of the horse rider and farmer of the argentinian pampas in the 19th Century, and still applies today to name people from argentina in a nice way: ("What a beautiful Gaucha girl!") or mean way ("Fucking Gauchos, their soccer team kicked the hell out of ours!").

Argentinian guys have this fame of being cheaters in everything. It's what its said, not something I invented. There are as many gaucho jokes in south america like polish jokes here. For instance: Which one is the best university in the world? Argentinian Airlines. Why? Because in Buenos Aires they're janitors, minimum-wage employees, taxi drivers, etc... after 8 hours of flight, they become Engineers, Architects, Movie Directors, Doctors.

So when the song starts singing about a guy who is wearing a poncho, hanging around with this... say, Girl... I understand this is a song about being cheated. Gay or Straight cheating, it doesn't matter. But there is a Gaucho involved, for sure.

Further Gaucho listening:

Charly Garcia, "Yendo de la Cama Al Living" (WEA, 1983) - Urban pop from Buenos Aires at its best. http://www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/quarter/9593/newlps/lpcharlygarcia.html

Jorge Cafrune, "Grandes Del Folklore" (Sony, 2003) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000A59KL/emiliocacao , this was the authentic gaucho, singing and playing his guitar on the pampa fields.

And one of my favorite records, Soda Stereo's "Nada Personal" (CBS, 1985) http://www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/quarter/9593/newlps/lpsodastereo.html , Possibly the closest thing to Modern UK Pop that Argentina ever produced.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 12:33:41 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

If you look at Donald's work at the Rhodes, both live and in concert, he plays the box as a rhythm instrument. I had occasion to sit very close just off his left at the first Universal show and got a real good look at his mechanics back there. He doesn't play a lot, when he does, he's pounding the Rhodes in time; other times, like Peg, he's flailing on it getting that bop-bop-ba, bop-bop-ba. The synth solos are given to the brass. He does add nice touches at the codas, tinkling away with right hand. He's very busy singing.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 12:08:56 ET
Posted by: norm,

A few examples of Fagen soloing:

Home At Last
Green Room (trading with WB)
Fire In The Hole
Your Gold Teeth (I)

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 11:56:28 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Help me here ...

During the recent "debate" about Walter's status as guitar god (or lack thereof) I noted no one seems to wonder about Donald's "chops" on the keyboards. How many solos has he done? My recording credits knowledge is really weak, but the only ones I can think of are Do it Again and Lunch with Gina -- and I may be wrong about those.

One reason this came to mind was that I really love "synth solo" on LWG, but DF did not attempt to recreate it in concert (Concord). Isn't that him on the recording?

This is NOT to question Donald's brilliance. There may be plenty of other examples of his solos I just don't know about and solo performances are like potent frosting on the SD cake -- just one ingredient. At the same time, it seems some expect Walter to be Eric-freaking-Clapton (or Charlie Christian) and ignore that Donald is in the background, instrumentally, even more.

Comments?

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 11:24:11 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Pete your take on Gaucho, amongst all the others I've read and heard and posited myself, seems most plauible. The story as you tell it is simple and just flows. No straining or torturing of the language. But the gay thing sure made people uncomfortable in 1980, heck still frieghtens the hell out of most of middle-America the way Chruch leaders carry on about it and all.

But beyond that underlying plotline, I love the feel of this quasi-public argument. It's like when your brother-in- law and your wife's sister's boyfriend start some stupid argument at, like, Thanksgiving and it gets too loud and people start noticing. Wowie very unconfortable, shut him up and get him outta here, he's starting to snap his fingers and dance to the Johnny Mathis Xmas album.

Plus, then there's the point of view of the Gaucho, he is the eternal isolated one, never fitting in, totally out of his element. I always felt very sorry for him. Think of some awful momment in your life where you were the Gaucho, the unwashed and unwanted.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 11:02:44 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu ,

The Custerdome is a movers and shakers place of Doom...you do remember what happened to Gen. George Custer?

"Doesn't he have a home" is probably more suggestive of "why is the Gaucho hanging around here?" ...disrupting the don't ask don't tell LA cool of 1980...


Theron: They're laughing AT them, not WITH them...


Before Roger The Immortal Nichols walked in and their life began again...they knew: Garbage IN, Garbage OUT

Yes, I think of Gaucho the album as a transition to The Nightfly because of opiate derviative and large auto on a collisioin vector issues with Walter...the notion of Donald singing to Walter is an interesting one that's been floating around awhile.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 10:55:31 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

My take on the Gaucho story:

It's no secret there's a strong gay element calling shots in Hollywood. For the most part, these are classy, urbane, non-flamboyant people who in some cases would not even be recognized as gay.
The Custerdome is a club that they frequent and the narrator is the proprietor. He has a friend/lover who has been let into this exclusive club (perhaps he does some entertaining there) which is a great opportunity for the friend/lover to advance his career by meeting some of the industry power-brokers.
Up to now the friend has always fit well with the low-key style of the club, but *today* he's shown up in full-camp mode with an even more flamboyant South American friend trying to get in. This, of course, would not be appreciated by the regular clientele, who are not the type to show up at Queer Nation rallies or flaunt their gayness as the friend and his Gaucho amigo are doing.

No data to back this up, just seems to be to fit the lyrics and, as previously noted, West Hollywood setting. No drug dealer, no Don and Walt metaphor. Just a funny story and an exasperated narrator.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 09:49:18 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

So Peter - my comments on Jarret were incomplete, he is a schmuck, but also a great artist. I was exposed to him by a buddy's parents in the sixties, man it was hard to listen to that without a musical frame of reference; the ability to listen and gather that somebody naturally gains as they grow up and older (if they love the music).

Funny about Jarret, his legacy as a very difficult person continues. He played here in LA this week at the new and futuristic Disney Concert Hall which opened a few weeks ago with the LA Symphony led by that Japanese guy whose name escapes me at the momment. All the long hairs were extolling the great coustics of the new place for weeks. Jarret comes along and, being the first jazz trio to play there, was asked about the acoustics. Now I couldn't go so I take it with a grain of salt but Jarret said flat out in the papers that the sound travels in the wrong direction in the hall: from the audience up to the stage. He went on to say that we can't seem to get acoustics right in this country as opposed to European halls. Well, maybe he was just being honest but this guy has all the diplomatic gile of the Bush team. DeJohnette played without being miked and apparently was overtaking the other two, his subtle style notwithstanding.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 07:37:10 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

The coolest photo of Keith Jarrett ever is on the photographer Daniel Sheehan's website, an awesome piece.

Rajah, your comment about Keith raises an interesting point about a chasm of understanding that (I'm sure you'll agree) often exists between great artists and their fans. Imagine it being the 1970s and the kids like us who are listening to Steely Dan are also listening to...to what? The Stones, the Doors, the Who, Zep, Dylan, etc. Meanwhile the guys are listening to...Jan Garabek and Keith Jarrett. Wow! What a difference.

IMHO this is really the greatness of SD (it is a common trait that all great artists have, cf. the book Sparks of Genius: The 13 Thinking Tools of The World's Most Creative People by Robert and Michele Root-Bernstein) - they are able to say, Look, you kids are listening to this over here, and then there's that over there, but look what happens when you take this and that and come up with a third way.

Unfortunately, many fans don't take the clue. Listening to polar opposites really opens your eyes. The Keith Jarrett trio albums with Gary Peacock on the bass and Jack DeJohnette on the drums contain such playing they almost defy human understanding. The performance by Tinsley Ellis and Bobby McFerrin (tinsleyellis.com) is so awe inspiring and uplifting, I'll bet B&F were on top of it right away, checking it out, listening, while virtually no fans were. That in my opinion is what makes SD important.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 07:14:09 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Also young Theron, there are numerous inductees in the R n R Hall of Fame that have nothing whatsoever to do with rock n roll, like Nat King Cole, Michael Jackson, the Staples Singers, ad infinitum - it's a big building and they have to keep the space filled and an awards ceremony every year, so you know, they bend the genres a little bit.

But more to the point: go to Steely Dan's entry and read the paragraph that begins "Beneath the highly polished surface of Steely Dan's music..."

I like the R n R Hall of Fame, it's where I kicked off my collection of authenticated Eddie Van Halen guitar picks. You know how many high kicks I have seen Diamond Dave do, on the same stages where I have seen Steely Dan? Approximately 23,675. I have gone to more Sammy Hagar Cabo Wabo tequila parties than I have PTA meetings. Oh the wonder of it all Theron.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 06:03:11 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Theron, B&F's dissatisfaction with the LA scene is a universally acknowledged and accepted thing. Check the note on the lyrics to Show Biz Kids, "The Dan goes to LA and is forced to give an oral report."

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 02:49:28 ET
Posted by: Theron,

I don't remember the lyrics going like this:

*"It's a glamour profession ... I hate the L.A. scene"????

*"Drive west off sunset.... into the sea, I would rather die than live in L.A." - "Babaylon Sisters - shoot me...I hate L.A."???

Not dissatisfaction in the least Mr. Q. Attitude toward L.A. more like this: "I lie into nothing special."

Gotta run - gonna watch Steely Dan get inducted into the ROCK & ROLL hall of fame one more time. Probaby the proudest moment of their lives you know.

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 00:36:17 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Dunno, should I?

Date: Sat, November 15, 2003, 00:04:10 ET
Posted by: Kid C, @home

Raj - Are you starting arguements with yourself again?

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 22:56:09 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

We all know Keith Jarret is the consumate schmuck, no? Well, he IS!

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 22:32:18 ET
Posted by: Keith Jarrett, String theory

There is only ONE Steely Dan theme, ONE character, one altered blues mu chord progression. I invented it all!

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 21:33:29 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Ole...we just disagree. We've had this discussion many times. IMHO the view of relationships offered in these songs is very bleak. Granted, most of the songs are from another epoch.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 20:55:26 ET
Posted by: oleander, no static

Em--Thanks for the ref! I'd never seen that book.

Pete Christlieb also played tenor on "FM."

Heavy rollers = playaz. The ones at the hi-stakes tables.

Sir Peter--"so why not write a song about Mother Teresa, or Hilary Clinton?" -- ?? -- What makes them good song subjects? "EVERY SONG" does not describe deviant behavior, or perhaps only to those to whom it's deviant. "IMHO if we don't make assumptions like this there is no kind of foundational basis for inquiry after the arts at all"--would you care to explain?

Many thanx to the WebDrone for the detailed heads-up on the "Apogee" cd release. I was hunting for it--now I know I can wait until Feb.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 20:11:27 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

ahhhh but only they would say that ...

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 19:29:12 ET
Posted by: Words + Music,

Walter and Donald have said that Steely Dan songs are not autobiographical, but based on composites of many people they have met or read about through the years. A line here about one person, another line based on another. In the 70's when they were in L.A., they wrote mostly about people in NYC and when in NYC for "Gaucho," they wrote about L.A.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:59:12 ET
Posted by: Em, Ca

"What really went on towards the end"-CORRECTION-what really went on before the hiatus....

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:54:41 ET
Posted by: Em, Ca

Here is an interesting link in regards to the Gaucho discussion-scroll down when you get there to find the "Gaucho" comments:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/bp/hits/inside2.php

I like what this fellow is saying but I will always think of the gaucho as a drug dealer, whether the two guys are D and W or not...we'll never really know, even tho they don't write personal stories....

Lonnie-I personally see it as a business partnership-(only my opinion, how I interpret the song, just to shed some light)-the "heavy rollers" could be the corporate big wigs (see on feverdreams where Donald talks about the Custerdome housing big corporations)

As far as you mentioning that DF did the album without as much WB as usual kind of backs up my idea of it being about our two boys, maybe being more personal-is D singing to W?? I doubt it but sometimes I wonder....I could speculate all sorts of things but I dont know D & W and what really went on towards the end.....

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:54:05 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

IMHO Gaucho contains numerous familiar thematic components - the love triangle; the identification with cars (in this case the freeway) as a means to freedom; the dissatisfaction with the LA scene; gambling (heavy rollers - or if not gamblers, financial backers of some kind); the revisiting of the "poor people sleepin" theme from Show Biz Kids (here presented as "...will never be welcome here/High in the Custerdome" - the Gaucho is not presentable enough to the upper crust);etc.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:47:44 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Well, Joe Williams sang Going To Chicago Blues with Count Basie Orch.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:44:07 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Kid - according to the Sweet books the singer David Palmer had a gold tooth put in just before a recording session, and the title comes from that - or something like that, I can't remember the exact story, but it has something to do with David Palmer's dental work.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 18:04:01 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, 7th Ave. Playroom

Gretchen ~

I like your mind. Good way to kick off the Gaucho analysis. Great tune to dissect. Your analysis goes beyond what I thought -- very insightful. I also remain puzzled about the "heavy rollers" line and my fave line "you're a nasty schoolboy with no place to go." I suppose this could mean the older "gent" is upset about the young lover going away with another and being lonely. I agree that it is likely set in LA -- as is most of the album. They way DF sings the tune in perfect sync with the harmony and melodic structure of the tune is just soooo good. Donald largely did that album without WB and he did one helluva job. I have really grown to appreciate Gaucho much more over the last year. It really is a fine album -- just a hair below AJA.

Lonnie

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 17:56:10 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, Playroom

Gretchen gets the "gold star" (and not the silver star in the book of liars)for her knowledge of the Count. Yes -- the "monkey woman" line is from "Going to Chicago" and Don and Walt have acknowledged that they lifted that line for use in their tune.

Lonnie is impressed.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 16:28:41 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, chillin' (literally) in CT

Wasn't the "monkey woman" line from Basie's "Going to Chicago?"

Lonnie:
Gaucho does provide for interesting analysis. I perceive it to be in LA, in the very posh and meticuluously decorated hi rise condo of one high living guy, who has a partner who is involved in a sudden "fling" with a poor but flashy young thing. But why was "Custerdome" the chosen name for the building? What could that signify?
The protagonist is a snobbish sort, expelling the young intruder as trash that could never live up to the standards of a Custerdome dweller. The "cowboy" popped in at a time when the narrator felt most secure and comfortable in the relationship, but apparently his partner was bored. Our narrator has probably poured lots of cash into the relationship and has also done so in past relationships, and is now afraid at being ridiculed for this if he is "kissed off" again.
The bodacious cowboy is wearing the partners clothing, signifying that this new relationship is no secret and the partner may be trying to break away with the obviousness of this and the request to let him sleep on the floor. My guess is the "you scratch my back" line refers to the comprimise the narrator has with the partner, being that he will provide financial comfort and luxury while receiving sexual favors. Also, the partner is probably some "trophy boyfriend" the narrator likes to be seen with around the Custerdome, although his official home is elsewhere. The "heavy rollers" reference puzzles me, though. Any thoughts?

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 16:26:47 ET
Posted by: Snake Mary, The Clock is Close at Hand

How abouty dissecting "Rose Darling" next? It's lightweight and pretty funny on top of that.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 15:40:03 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

PQ - I know 'killing floor' from Hendrix and Zep who borrowed it from the oldtimers, but didn't know the 'monkey' line. It sure looks different with a fresh perspective. I'll go along with the 'I won't get fooled again' premise, it's pretty obvious now.

I still find it tough to decipher the first verse of II and the how and why they called it II. I'll have to do some recipherin' over the weekend and see what comes up.

KC

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 15:12:24 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Kid - I has blues references, "Killing Floor" being a Howlin Wolf song and "There ain't nothin in Chicago for a monkey woman to do" being a line in a song by I believe Big Joe Wiliams. Here it appears that the boy is standing her up to her and giving her the boot rather than succumbing to quaquaversal maneating tendencies.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 15:04:41 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin (of '65), The Playroom

Aloha all shoppers ~

Great discussion about one of my huge faves -- Doctor Wu. I think the inquiring minds who have chimed in are "on point." Would love to know what Don and Walt actually had in mind when that classic was penned.

On another thread, how about some discussion of another great and lyrically interesting tune, GAUCHO?! That tune presents some interesting analysis. How about it?

Lonnie

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 14:22:59 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

Slow news day. Where is everyone? Is there gas in the car?

I'd love to sit down with Walter and peruse his album collection, I wonder if he's got a separate little hut to store them all in?

It appears as the Wu thread has wound to end, of sorts. What's next?

I just breezed through the lyrics to YGT & YGTII. Is there some correlation between the lyrics? There seems to be a gambling reference in the second verse which works with I, but what is that first verse all aboot?

Discuss.


KC

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 13:44:50 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

There's a post on Carolyn Leonhart's website alluding to a "Pacific Rim Leg" of EMG by some galpal that apparently attended a Tour wrap party in Hawaii, commented on how nice Walter was to her and saving up her pennies for the Pacific Rim Leg. Can't attest to its veracity.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 13:02:35 ET
Posted by: angel,

Hey KD, thanks for the link. I can hear the influence of Charlie's playing on Walter. Check out the sound samples on amazon, if you are not familiar with his playing style.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 12:05:53 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Whoops, I made 2 mistakes...I confused LT with George Shearing and I was thinking of LT's Crosscurrents with Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh. Sorry!

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 08:52:43 ET
Posted by: Correction,

Warne Marsh was the Lennie Tristano disciple, not Christlieb, having played in Lennie's groundbreaking quintet back in the late 40's with Lee Konitz.

Also, all photos I've seen portray Lennie without dark glasses.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 00:33:45 ET
Posted by: KD,

http://www.charlie-christian.com/testimonials.html

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 00:32:26 ET
Posted by: Yo,

KD, what;s the source on that one?

Thanks.

Date: Fri, November 14, 2003, 00:20:00 ET
Posted by: KD, Hoosierville

Thought I'd drop this off:

"The history of the electric guitar as an important jazz voice certainly begins with Charlie Christian. Fundamentally a swing player, he is nevertheless often considered a proto-bopper of sorts. Indeed, many of the most admirable elements of bop musicality — the soaring excursions beyond the confines of the familiar, the joyous sense of real-time discovery and delight, and that wonderful combination of "freshness" and "rightness" that distinguishes the playing of the great early boppers — are present in abundance in his work. The originality of his conception, the hard-driving swinging qualities of his sinuous lines, and the perfect marriage of tone and content in his playing are, in my opinion, unmatched to this day. Charlie Christian is deservedly considered the most influential electric jazz guitarist of his or any time, and listening to his recordings is always a blast."
—Walter Becker (Steely Dan)

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 21:29:13 ET
Posted by: Pivotal Pete, California

Hey, all -- Great buncha threads lately! Right after the tour ended the Blue got pretty quiet but is once again a place of lively opinion and humor. (And occasional facts...) I get busy and it takes DAYS to catch up!

Rajah- Your comments on "writing the same song over & over" reminded me of a show that's been running in London for years: "The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (abridged)." Saw it a few months back while there on business -- turns out it's a bunch of American boys who concocted this zany tribute to the Bard (playwright, not college). In one scene they combine ALL the comedies into one 5-ish minute playlet, noting "Will really only wrote one comedy and just changed the title."

God and Songwriters - The theme of Godwhacker has reminded me of the Doobie Brothers' song "How Do Those Fools Survive?" (on "Minute by Minute") which--as some may know--features the voice of "God" (aka Michael McDonald) marvelling at the silliness of people praying for their daily bread. Now seeing the FoxNews piece there comes a startling (to me) coincidence: That DB song was co-written by: MMcD and Carole Bayer Sager.

Glamor Puzzle: Thought of PQ when this came up in a crossword. The answer: "Arena" The clue: "Basketball Stadium"

Florida and Donald: Seems to me a LOT of Don's material (Kama in particular) evokes Florida. Springtime and the Dunes are just a couple that don't refer to Florida but just seem to hafta be there to me.
BTW, some say Gaucho (Custerdome) is set in Manhattan, but that does not make sense. No one can "wait in the car" in the Big Apple and there are no "freeways" in that area. Most likely setting: West Hollywood, where I'd guess plenty of cowboys wear studs that match their eyes. Also a better fit for the LA-themed album IMHO.

I'm in the Josie-as-pagan camp. Strokin the violin (?) while Rome burns...

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 20:42:51 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" I was at both shows and believe me, nothing was being filmed. "

You make Joey cry like Baby !

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 20:41:56 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu ,

Joey, Rajah: I can tell you that they absolutely NAILED every song in the first set of the Dallas show...What a Night! ...Although half-deaf from amps turned up to 11 in a tin box that is Smirnoff Amphitheatre, the second set was excellent, although I wasn't able to differentiate among all the players...

Don's vocals where just dead on, although he had a tough of the jerry Lewis thing...Carlock was outstanding...Weiskopf, Leonhart, Pugh, Bumpus were extremely tight - I think Weiskopf fits in with his style a little better than Potter when playing as a unit...Jon Herington was more confident this time around. His work on Aja and Kid C made me forget about Larry Carlton...Babe choir meshed perfectly with The Donald...yes, a DVD by Pixar, if we're sans camera would work...

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 20:18:01 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

L'Avventura was an incredible study of a Steely Dan woman and later Antonioni's Blow-Up and Zabriskie Point are also very Dan-ish, the former dealing with what he sees as a troubling background scenario in his glam pinshot of vanessa redgrave. Zabriskie pairs two quasi-demented lovers with lots of carnage in their landscape. Yeah Q, I'd say you got something

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 20:07:40 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Knowing that B&F are film scholars, and given that in jest Ted Baker was introduced as 'Michelangelo Antonioni' at a few shows, it is very hard not to believe SD lyrics are derivative of, inspired by, paying homage to, whatever words you want to use, Antonioni's films. Actually that quote that Beerberian quoted here yesterday is a virtual blueprint for L'Aventurra, a film B&F are almost certainly admirers of. The way the female protagonist in A's trilogy of films moves from one man to another, and the bewildered emotional responses of the men, are very similar to what seems to happen in these SD songs.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 19:58:40 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Melanie - there are several shots of the Jules & Jim poster in Vanilla Sky, the one with a large Jeanne Moreau against a green background. There is also a computerized image of Coltrane playing the soprano early in the movie, which is the setup scene for later when Tom Cruise screams "Play jazz!!!" at the team of plastic surgeons. This is a device similar to what Crowe used in his previus film, Almost Famous.

What's this got to do with SD? Besides being the greatest menage a tois movie of all the time, and thus sharing that theme with SD songs, on the recent tour several players were I believe introduced as 'Francois Truffaut' and 'Michelangelo Antonioni'. Which leads to the next point.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 19:50:24 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Pete Christlieb plays the tenor on Deacon Blues. He is/was a disciple of the blind bop pianist Lennie Tristano, you know, bent over the piano with shades on.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 19:25:08 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

OK who are these guys, although the name Christlieb rings a bell. Help me, you all-knowing ones.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 19:13:38 ET
Posted by: SDWeb, steelydan.com

FYI -
Rcv'd from someone at Warners Classics

---- quoting ----
You might want to mention to Steely Dan fans that the Pete Christlieb/Warne Marsh "Apogee" disc produced by Walter Becker and Donald Fagen in 1978 is about to be released on CD for the first time:

Warne Marsh/Pete Christlieb
Apogee
Warner Bros./Rhino 73723-2
Available February 3, 2004

First CD Release
Remastered
New Liner Notes
3 Bonus Tracks

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 17:54:53 ET
Posted by: Leo,

Joey...A DVD of Roseland '03 would be very nice. But don't they have to film it in the first place in order for us to but it? I was at both shows and believe me, nothing was being filmed.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 17:50:38 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" And I'd definitely pay 24.99 for a DVD of the Roseland show(s). "

Ooooooooo ! You make Joey giddy .

Seriously , the Stones just released a Four Disc Set concert DVD of THEIR 2003 Tour and it only costs $ 29.99 ....................when will I be able to walk into Best Buy and pick up a DVD Entitled : " Steely Dan -- Live at Roseland '03 " ??????

Well ?!?!?!?!?! I's gots to know !

Developing .................like a pleasurable rash .

Jacky !

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 17:22:00 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Hell yes, I'd pay $150 to see them play Perry Como covers with Walter singing everything (snapshot: Walty singing "Catch a Falling Star and Put It in Your Pocket"). I'd pay $150 to watch Don and Walt do the hoola-hoop to King of the World. I'd pay $150 to hear Don play Lady of Spain on that dippy key-tar...or vibraslap for that matter.

And I'd definitely pay 24.99 for a DVD of the Roseland show(s).

Here's a thought: we all get together and set up a fund whereby D&W receive a monthly stipend to just stay alive and keep the songs coming. Forget albums, they can email us each new tune as it's finished, say, one every 90 days?

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 16:49:30 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" They really did rise to the occasion, remember I saw that first show in July and it was less than spectacular to say the least. Jump ahead to October at Universal and they were just letter and note perfect. "

My Rajah .....................................

I wish I could have seen some of the later shows . It sounds like the band was rocking on all cylinders by that period ( no " muffed " lyrics by Donald ) .

" I thought it was a bit of a letdown from Y2K. They did not seem as into it as three years ago. It was a bit sterile and impersonal. "

Yeah , I noticed there was hardly ANY crowd interaction at all -- in fact , I sort of wonder if any of them really knew or even cared what city they were playing in at the time ( Exception : Roseland ) .
Yet , the performances were spectacular and the each player stellar -- I got my money's worth and had an enjoyable summer evening under the stars/mountains with the Dan . Lovely .

I would EASILY pay $ 150.00 a tix to see them again next summer .

The Joey !

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 16:27:01 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

You know, Joey-lad, I don't know how I feel about this last tour. They really did rise to the occasion, remember I saw that first show in July and it was less than spectacular to say the least. Jump ahead to October at Universal and they were just letter and note perfect. But, here's my but, I thought it was a bit of a letdown from Y2K. They did not seem as into it as three years ago. It was a bit sterile and impersonal. Now granted, a lot has happened in the world since the last tour to bring us all down like 9/11, wars, recession, other disasters, GW and that whole right wing hooey crew, so that has something to do with it. They seemed down is what I'm trying to say. Look at the Official website - no chiming in from the road by Walter, none of those ribald little anechdotal tales. Has this incarnation of Dan come to a close? We know that everything must go so, what I'm hoping for after what I sense is going to be a period of silence from D&W is a reinvention. What it will be however is anyone's guess.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 16:02:42 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

I would say that , overall , this 2003 Tour was the BEST STEELY DAN YET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..........even if they DIDN'T play " Deacon Blues !!! "

Jacky !

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 15:29:35 ET
Posted by: angel,

Bill: I rented Me, Myself and Irene on my Birthday (so it was free). :-)
Considering that I went in expecting to hate it, it was not too bad. About what you would expect from a guy, sight gag comedy type thing. Jim Carey is talented in his own way. The music, unfortunately, is only there for the opening of most of the Steely Dan songs. The minute the vocal is supposed to appear, they cut it out. That was disappointing, since there were a few good covers on the Soundtrack. I especially like Razor Boy, Only a Fool and Any Major Dude.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 15:24:52 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @work

M,M&I was really sub-par. I'm a fan of Carey's and I sat through it only because of that, and the soundtrack which like you mentioned, Bill, didn't really seem to fit well. There are a few good moments but not much more than that. I was never really taken with any of the covers either. Those are big shoes to fill though.

KC

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 15:23:02 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pgh

Raj, it depends on how you define SD vI: the 5-piece core band only lasted a couple years and the studio-only successor had dozens of players in and out with a few standbys (Chuck Rainey, Victor Feldman, Dean Parks). SD vII, 1993-present, has had more stability in Tom Barney and Cornelius Bumpus(10 years), Michael & Carolyn Leonhart (1996-present). I'd even say that the 2000-2003 touring version which saw only three personnel changes (drums, one sax, one backing singer) has now lasted longer than the 1972-74 touring bands and had less turnover.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 15:04:23 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I think this second incarnation of Steely Dan (SD II) has now been appearing and recording together longer than Steely Dan I. Like... wow.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 15:02:36 ET
Posted by: Bill, again

Has anyone actually seen "Me Myself & Irene," the Jim Carrey film that used a bunch of Steely covers on its soundtrack? From what I remember reading about the film, the music wouldn't have been a particularly good match. I believe the premise was that the Carrey character had a split, Jeckyll/Hyde type personality, one a wimp and the other a rather violent jerk, and both personalities were competing for the same woman's attention. It got pretty negative reviews.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 14:55:45 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Another movie with plot and ambience reminiscent of SD would be Body Heat - seductive woman ropes gullible loser into trouble way over his head cluminating in a murder that he is framed for. Takes place in Florida during a heat wave. Haven't seen it in many years but as I recall William Hurt's character was a bit of an archtypal Dan protagonist and Kathleen Turner was a classic Steely femme fatale. I think it was her first big role.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 13:32:39 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, staring at my cream-of-wheat

Identity was pretty far out there, lots of little subplots, etc. lot's of wiggle room for ideas.

I just got Ghost in the Machine in the mail yesterday, in part due to the Police/drummer discussion a short while ago. It brought to mind a humorous story from back in high school. Several of us were over at a friends house breaking in a school art project/bong and were listening to said album. A girl says "what do they mean by spirits in my hot cereal?". The following pandimonium was priceless, it took us a good 20 minutes to finally settle down. The mother of mis-heard lyrics.

KC

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 13:26:17 ET
Posted by: hoops,

"King of Comedy" Required watching for obsessive fans of anything. Bonus feature is David Sanborn's performance of the Fagen-penned "The Finer Things." I have always have this habit of telling people that there's a Donald Fagen track is on the Soundtrack to "King of Comedy" when the credit is actually a Sanborn track. Similar for Yellowjackets' "Shades." I guess that comes from so many studio musicians recording the Steely Dan and Fagen tracks.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 13:09:38 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Mulholland Drive by David Lynch.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 12:44:39 ET
Posted by: Melanie, where the sun also rises...

Always thought Janie Runaway could be like a modern day Holly Golightly but with more spunky fire...

"The Little Thief"-French flick..also a little Janie in there

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 12:34:09 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, At home, under the weather

For a good Steely Dan flick, try "Ghost World." It fits the almost gothic/negative girl/poor loser persona to a "T". It's like seeing one of their songs as a movie. Also, "Pumpkin" with Christina Ricci is a werid, offbeat tale worth checking out.
Are the 4 0'clock regulars around today for wine and chat? I'll be there.
G

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 12:11:03 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Re: Josh Rouse - there's a good reason he'd cover Dirty Work. His current CD is entitled "1972," which was the year of his birth as well as the year his favorite Telecaster was manufactured, and it is produced to sound like it came out in 1972. He is apparently big fan of the better mainstream music of this era, which has to include CBAT (along with Stevie Wonder, Carole King, Marvin Gaye, etc.) The production is pretty authentic from what I've heard on our local "AAA format" radio station.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 11:41:48 ET
Posted by: Melanie, Barcelona

Peter Q-refresh my memory-the Jules and Jim poster??? I can't remember it, so help me out here,my curiosity will drive me crazy for the rest of the day...

And with the mention of some films here lately, just a random thought...has anyone seen a film that has been very "Steely Dan-esque" where they had nothing to do with the soundtrack but the story lines had the same tone to their lyrics? Maybe this has been discussed already but I'm a big Paul Thomas Anderson fan and find some similar human tragedy type themes in his films (Boogie Nights, Magnolia especially, Punch Drunk Love, Hard Eight)...I know there are many more out there and I am always one for an unhappy ending or at least a twisted one just like the songs of our boys here ...Maybe "Night on Earth" (I think that's what it was called) also a bit Dan-esque...

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 11:23:01 ET
Posted by: shattered trust, in a room....

Now I remember what I like about this place....artiuclate discussions of Steely lyrics, characters and povs.

Thanks Peter, KC, et al.!

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 10:49:08 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Good morning campers, well, it is the freakin begining of the end when it hails here in LA, does anybody need further proof?

Thinking about Q's notion that Do It Again, RDLTN, Wu, all these songs of amour gone awry, addiction, loss, betrayal, and other indignities, are basically the same song. I say yes and no. Composers and authors are lucky if they can fully develop a few themes over their careers and find an audience who connects with them. You could say then that Lennon & McCartney, James Joyce, the Nirvana guy, Eugene O'Neill, Liszt, on and on --were all just writing the same song over and over so to speak. It's all about developing and refining the message, finding a voice and, hopefully, a style all your own. Least thats how my weltunshuung is hung.

Just name some composers or authors who are truly all over the map and never return to old themes, characters, situations, a favorite key or tempo.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 10:26:55 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

I fear I may have been put off for good by Vanilla Sky but thanks anyways ...

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 10:13:51 ET
Posted by: sunsetSpecial,

Beerberian: Vanilla Sky is actually a remake of the Alejandro Amenabar film Open Your Eyes. As is often the case, something is lost in the translation into American mainstream cinema. Think of the butchering job that occurred when Robert Rodriguez re-made El Mariachi as the Antonio Banderas vehicle Desperado. Yikes. I suggest you give Open Your Eyes a whirl. And for your viewing pleasure... Penélope Cruz still plays Sofia in the original version.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 09:37:52 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

Hello My Steely Brothers and Sisters .......................


I have just finished listening to EMG officially for the 328th time and I now regard this disc as a Masterpiece and have bumped up my overall rating of the album from a solid " A " to " A + " .

This is sure to win another Grammy for Don and Walt .

-- Thank You

Jacky !

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 09:29:06 ET
Posted by: Abu2, 'sldin' down the ladder'

"and I think that most of the things they write about are more of what happens in times of excess;Do It Again starts off the 'official'collection of songs and is the prototype of what is to come."

Interesting point. Continuing with this thread,then the title track EMG could be seen as an iteration of this selfsame theme,and the disenfanchisement and disillusionment that results from this greed. there's a certain 'Zen'to all this!

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 07:28:13 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

In point of fact it is the recognition of the articulation of this particular rite of passage - the shattering of innocence, faith, trust, etc. - that makes anybody a Steely Dan fanatic to begin with.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 06:44:58 ET
Posted by: Duke, DE

Abu2: It would be interesting to know if they had some thoughts on continuity between songs on different albums. I think some people have hypothesized that maybe a song like What A Shame About Me is a continuation of an earlier song. There could be other examples of this as well.

As far as this conversation about the women of Steely Dan, I think it goes to the overall theme of how screwed up the world is. They are, to some extent, moralists because they tend to finger the bad in the world, although they leave it up to the listener whether to say "Wow, he/she's messed up," or "Poor Charlie Freak," or "Hey that sounds like me!" And if you notice, with what I've said, that means that they feel that religion is something that's wrong with the world. Which in their minds is probably the case. And I think that most of the things they write about are more of what happens in times of excess; Do It Again starts off the "official" collection of songs, and is the prototype for what is to come.

DOE

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 06:33:56 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Hey Beerberian, some weeks ago I was advising J de Siecle here that if you think about Steely Dan related things alot, stuff will begin to happen in your life related to the band, ie, you'll meet someone in the group by complete accident, someone in the street will pass you wearing a fez, etc. Looks like you created one of those synchronicites!

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 06:25:35 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Esteemed benefactor: "certain kinds of women who are not mainstream or easy" - so why not write a song about Mother Teresa, or Hilary Clinton? When EVERY SONG describes deviant behavior it's kind of safe to say that this is what the artist believes life is like, the artist's *weltaanschuung* if you will. IMHO if we don't make assumptions like this there is no kind of foundational basis for inquiry after the arts at all.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 06:16:14 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Yeah but it is a Shite Film !!! psuedo thriller mangled plot excuse for a waste of celluloid ... IMHO of course (Earl)

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 06:13:44 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Hey Laina,Vanilla Sky has a relation to SD, check out that Jules & Jim poster in Tom Cruise's bedroom.

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 04:35:23 ET
Posted by: Laina, pleasantly surprised

I just happened to be looking for information on a singer-songwriter named Josh Rouse. He has a song on the Vanilla Sky soundtrack ("Directions") which I like, so I was just looking at his message board. One poster posted about a recent show of Rouse's, in Philly, where he apparently did a "nice steely dan cover of dirty work." Found that at random, just thought I'd share.

*beams*

Lainalove

Date: Thurs, November 13, 2003, 04:02:35 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Spooky or what ... last night BBC1 "comedy" prog "Only fools and horses" usually set in Peckham London ... But special episode ends up where? ... Biscayne Bay Florida !!!!! No sign of Dr Wu although there was a drug deal involved in the plot !! The Lord moves in mysterious ways ... Rodney You Plonker !

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 23:57:38 ET
Posted by: oleander, stretched out on that big black couch

Whew. So many interesting ideas, kind of verbal cubism.

WDF--would love to see some of those depictions. I have such vivid pictures of Charlie Freak in my mind.

PQ--Yes, and Thru w/ Buzz, Haitian Divorce (said Mr. F in the quote), Black Cow, Negative Girl, and Peg as well. The only real love songs I can think of are I Got The News, Can't Write Home About You, Almost Gothic, Pearl, uh, Rose maybe, and Green Book, in a manner of speaking.

Which leads to the misogyny question: they don't hate any of these women in the songs, nor do they scorn them, and they are not cruel to them. (The exception to this last being "Everything You Did," but I submit that that's one of their vignette songs.) I think they're just interested in certain kinds of women, or concepts of women, who are not exactly mainstream or easy. Sometimes the narrators are kind and sympathetic, sometimes pissed off, pussy whipped, or just bemused by the whole man-woman thing. That's something I really enjoy in the lyrics--relationships are not dumbed down, but are portrayed with perspective in a few highly distilled, complex flavors. That's anything but misogynistic.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 22:26:20 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Beer, Kid: great takes

Rajah: "phantom sense" Yes, that's perfect...just beyond reach or comprehension is indeed the ether that ties a good bit of Steely Dan together

angel: Chuck Rainey is the God of the fretless bass...it may be hard to hear with the full band, but go to Andy's site for the Wu and Your Gold Teeth II alternate takes - it's easier to hear the amazing give and take between Rainey and Porcaro...

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 22:14:11 ET
Posted by: Abu2, Conundrum Alley

Is it possible that the woman in Dr Wu is the same persona as the one in Black Cow,and by extension,or extrapolation the woman referred to in TITM? (sometimes in 'the corner of my eye',I see that adorable ghost)

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 19:22:39 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

WuDuF, you sound like a great teacher. It sounds like you incorporated Art Therapy into the learning experience, which is being recognized as more and more effective, particularly with special needs students. And Steely Dan evokes such strong visual images, it must have really brought things into a much clearer perspective for the kids, at a level they felt was cool. Go, girl!

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 18:45:23 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Actually the Wu story is told as early as Do It Again - "Then you find your only friend/In a room with your two timer..." etc. This discovery of the shattering of innocence belief and faith is a defining emotion in many SD songs.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 18:24:28 ET
Posted by: WuDuF, blissful in Bethel

I saw "Charlie Freak" come up and it reminded me of something. Back in my beginning teacher days, we were doing a unit on homelessness, and since my class was special ed I had to find alternate ways of presenting the material. I wrote the lyrics out to this (and other) songs and had the students listen to it. To my joyful surprise, these kids who listened to pretty much just rap and hard rock really got into the song. They drew some amazing pictures to illustrate certain parts of the song, and we had quite an interesting discussion on the characters and their history, what could have happened afterwards, etc. Just shows that Steely Dan can still reach those of a young age, and quite possibly have a positive influence on them. By the end of the unit they had a newfound respect for those who go through hard times, and these kids who had been known to do quite a bit of bullying and name-calling, really cut way back on those kinds of hurtful comments.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 17:48:48 ET
Posted by: angel,

Listening to Dr. Wu today. Anyone notice that the bass seems to float along on that song. Similar to Deacon Blues (I think that was the song Walter mentioned in Making Aja). It lets the piano stand out, beautifully, I might add.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 15:15:47 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

So, who WAS the elusive Dr. Wu?

They have described the song as a love triangle. We know both D&W were and are Dylan fans. Does this verse ring a bell?

Well, I asked the doctor if I could see you
It's bad for your health, he said
Yes, I disobeyed his orders
I came to see you
But I found him there instead
You know, I don't mind him cheatin' on me
But I sure wish he'd take that off his head
Your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat

My take on the song was always that Katy was one of the many seductive, bad-news women in Dan songs that helped wreck the protagonist's life, either by luring him into drugs or by personifying the drug itself, and Dr. Wu was a healer of sorts that provided temporary relief but let the singer down when he was in need. I think the various posts below have fleshed out the story very well, particularly the thought that Dr. Wu has not just abandoned the singer but run off with Katy and the drugs too.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 15:00:05 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

DEAR OH, REALLY:
you agitate easily, I see. What's it to you what I think? Too bad you won't leave your email address and/or real identity. I'm glad the scarf left such a lasting impression. I worked hard at it. (Actually, it's a silk wrap). And by the by, if I did have any inside info, I wouldn't tell you!!
xoxo

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 15:00:03 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

DEAR OH, REALLY:
you agitate easily, I see. What's it to you what I think? Too bad you won't leave your email address and/or real identity. I'm glad the scarf left such a lasting impression. I worked hard at it. (Actually, it's a silk wrap). And by the by, if I did have any inside info, I wouldn't tell you!!
xoxo

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 14:54:04 ET
Posted by: Laina, reading along

Well...way to be anonymous and make catty comments.

Anyways, this discussion of the significance of Wu is *very* interesting. I was unaware of all the connections--the insects, the Florida thing, and now perhaps, the identity of the protagonist and Wu. Keep thinking!

Lainalove

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 14:50:29 ET
Posted by: Oh really?,

"Don never had a drug addiction"

Gretchen.....And how do you know this? Do you know "Don" personally? Did Brian Sweet write this in his UNAUTHORIZED book?

Or did "Don" autograph your scarf this way:

To Gretchen,
I never had a drug addiction.
Best Wishes,
"Don" Fagen

Please Gretch....tell us some more inside stuff that you know about that everyone else here doesn't!

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 14:23:41 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, perplexed

?????????Peter, how do you come to that conclusion? By the way, you never explained your theory of how Katy=Josie.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 14:20:45 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Razor Boy, RDLTN, Wu, Junkie Girl, are all versions of the same song.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 13:54:23 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

More sets of wierd connections:

the BUG thing Donald has, to wit: Katy Lied (Katydid), Nightfly, and Kamakiriad (Kamakiri is Japanese for some kinda bug, I'm told)

Then there's the whole Asian motif, lots of references to the East.

Then add this Florida thing. Hmmm.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 13:01:09 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Yes, Don could have written the song from Walter's point of view, dealing with the addiction, but I thought that "Dr. Wu" embodied the Walter of old, before the drug issues, and the "shadow of the man that I once knew" led me to believe Don himself is the narrator.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:48:56 ET
Posted by: Duke, DE

An interesting observation: Florida seems to be a link to Donald (two solo songs with references to Florida). Not to mention that Dr. Wu could definitely be classified as a piano song, which would suit Donald. Thus, one could infer that Dr. Wu was written primarily by Donald.

But what if the protagonist was Walter written from Don's perspective? I don't think Sweet gives a timeline as to when Walter fell into drug addiction. So I'm not sure if Walter was hooked on cocaine back as far as Katy Lied or not.

DOE

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:29:22 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Duke, you got me thinking. Perhaps "Dr. Wu" was Walter, "Katy" was his addiction, and Don himself was the protagonist? That may be the reason they don't care to play it live, as it dredges up a past Walt may not wish to dwell on.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:08:35 ET
Posted by: Duke, DE

Gretchen: I am pretty sure you're right, although you never can tell with rock stars. Unless Fagen hid his recovery very well from those around him, Brian Sweet never mentioned it in his book(he mentioned Becker's troubles).

My guess is that the author of that Wu biography inferred that Fagen (who anyone other than a SD fan believes wrote all their songs) must have been helped by the man to honor him in a song.

DOE

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:06:32 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Raj, I'm sure he smoked a little weed now and then but by no means was he an addict. He looked sexy then as he does now. Damn, I miss him!

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:03:53 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Oh c'mon Gretch, catch those "stoner" looks on Don's mug on most of the photos from the 70s?

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 12:02:14 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Sure, I'll buy Cocaine Bay, I like it in fact. This Florida thing with Don should be remarked upon, i.e., Walk Between Raindrops and Florida Room, (TIMTM: house on the Gulf Coast?) along with this very dark little number. But the other three are about the love thang...or are they?

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:59:28 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Don never had a drug addiction.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:57:31 ET
Posted by: Jacky!, Who cares

Although Gary Katz is officially credited as producer of the seven Steely Dan albums, the consensus among engineers and musicians who worked on the albums is that Becker and Fagen (the songwriters and driving force of the "band") made all of the production decisions. The Steely Dan catalog is widely regarded as containing some of the best production and engineering in the history of recording, and is often used at audiophile stores to demonstrate the capabilities of high-end stereo gear.



Fagen's vocals were typically double-tracked to obtain the distinctive "Steely Dan" vocal sound. Rather than split-panning the unison double as The Beatles often did, or panning them up the center at identical volume levels, Fagen's unison-dubbed vocals were most often mixed so that the second part was at roughly 75% of the volume of the first: this gave the vocal the thickness of a unison double without the "in-your-face" obviousness and gimmickyness of one.

The sonic clarity of Steely Dan records was made possible by Roger Nichols, a former nuclear engineer turned recording engineer. The group's first two releases, "Can't Buy A Thrill" and "Countdown to Ecstasy" were experiments in equalization, or more accurately, in the lack thereof. "Roger didn't use ANY eq on those albums," recalls Skunk Baxter. "He believed that the records would sound more natural if we just concentrated on good mic placement." Walter Becker, a professed audiophile, pushed the recording team to greater and greater clarity.

The two best-sounding albums, "Aja" and "Gaucho" each won Grammys for best recording, in 1977 and 1980 respectively. After Becker and Fagen decided to break up "the band," Fagen recorded a solo album in 1983, "The Nightfly," which Katz nominally produced, and remains a standard by which audiophiles evaluate the performance and clarity of high end equipment. "The Nightfly was, I think, the most in-tune album ever made," Roger Nichols explains. "Because of the stretch tuning of a piano, in order to make everything in tune we would retune the synthesizers and play a few notes at a time so that they'd be perfectly in tune with the piano. The drums were tuned to the piano, the guitars, everything."

In 1988 MCA released the Steely Dan catalog on CDs made from safety masters and other 2nd generation sources, so that vinyl versions of the Steely Dan catalog, having been made from the first-generation masters, sounded better than the CDs. Following a series of careful comparisons, this reporter became convinced there was a problem with the releases, and exposed the now infamous "Steely Dan remastering scandal" in a Billboard article, in October 1990. To make matters worse, Mobile Fidelity (MF), purveyors of high-priced gold audiophile CDs, used an even worse set of analog masters, despite the fact that Engineer Nichols and the band had gone to great effort to create digital masters.

Nichols was livid. "With AJA the MF version is totally dead, worse than the MCA version, because they must have gotten the analog tapes a few years after MCA used them. They went and remastered from the analogs tapes that I had digitally remastered several years earlier. The snare is totally dead," Nichols complains. "What pisses me off is that I spend twenty fucking years doing this, and spending two years on "Gaucho" alone. Two years, every fucking day in the studio and it comes to this. I have no reason to continue. I quit. I'm fucking quitting the music business." (Fortunately, Nichols did not quit, and he has continued to engineer and produce some of the most beautiful CDs of all time, including Rosanne Cash's "Interiors.")

An MCA spokesman apologized publicly for the mistake, but privately pointed out that of the millions and millions of copies sold worldwide, not one purchaser or critic had complained to the company, or noticed the sonic discrepancy. Nevertheless, as warehouses sold out of current stock and new catalog CDs had to be made, MCA remastered them, properly this time, and affixed a sticker on the outside that read "remastered from the original tapes."

Fagen's 1993 release, "Kamakiriad," was reportedly ten years in the making, and according to Nichols, two years of that time were spent programming the drum machines and trying to get "just the right feel," to Fagen's increasingly exacting standards.

Becker and Fagen continued to produce outside projects throughout the eighties and nineties, both together and separately. Becker produced Ricki Lee Jones, China Crisis, and jazz artists Bob Sheppard and John Beasley. Fagen produced David Sanborn and a live Steely Dan reunion album, "Made In America."

As to Katz' role, Fagen recalls "Gary was very helpful in rounding up musicians for us to audition and doing the administrative work and also when we first started out as kids, we were scared to talk to some of the guys we hired because of their reputations either as great jazz players or great studio players. Producer can mean a lot of things in the record business. Gary was an entrepreneur, cheerleader, general organizer...he helped with the relations with musicians - he'd make deals with studios so we could record on the cheap. Musically speaking, when it got down to the nuts and bolts, Gary didn't know much music. We did most of the actual musical tasks."

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:56:56 ET
Posted by: Duke , DE

Rajah: Yeah, I think D+W are just trying to express the thoughts/delusions/problems of the drug addict, and his battle to try to sober up.

Does anyone else see a possible word play between "Biscayne" and cocaine?

DOE

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:52:44 ET
Posted by: Duke, DE

Beerberian: Sorry, I was a little hungry. It makes me irritable.

Kid C: Yeah, I was also thinking about the possibility that the narrator dies in Florida. Then he meets up with Dr Wu in the afterlife. I just had trouble linking that to the final chorus.

I also like the idea of Dr Wu being the conscience of the drug addict.

Here's another interesting thought: what if Dr Wu is the crack to Katy's cocaine?

Earl

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:51:16 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Kid - "you walked in" does not necessarily mean another actual person comes in. An idea or thought or desire or need can come over you and, in that sense, "walk in" to your head/life.

My super-sensory antennae tell me that most of our theories here suit very well, remembering at all times that there's no one definitive message or storyline or meaning.

Very rich, my Blue-folk.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:43:52 ET
Posted by: Kid C, amsterdam

Duke - if that were the case, beer's would be the only posts on here.
I'm actually kind of groovin' on your idea that the good Dr. Wu has succumbed to Katy himself. I'm having a hard time buying the 'good' ending as you describe with the narration stating he's changed. Like I said before I was thinking along those lines at first but my take of the end is just his recognition of the Dr. on the 'other side.'


KC

In the words of sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up,Francis"

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:43:34 ET
Posted by: Gretchen Lu, re: Dr. Wu

Perhaps Wu is the protagonist's reasonable, accomplished self from the pre-Katy days. He was OK before he met the sneaky but beautiful Katy. She has lied and cheated him to the point where he feels crucified for being a trusting individual. The relationship with Katy has "strung out" the protagonist to the point of feeling like he's at death's door (on the other side of no tomorrow). He knows Katy is toxic, possibly making him gamble away all of his piasters in Cuba (this could be taking place at the casino on the beach from the "Goodbye Look"-we have no proof this was about the 70's). He finally realizes that he's making a mistake but can't get back to his "Dr. Wu" persona, making him wonder if Katy has taken that confidence from him for good. Just a thought.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:43:19 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Everybody's allowed their ops here, whadya talkin about?

Let's take a quick look at the characteristics and habitat of the Katydid. I think the fact that this album is entitled "Katy Lied" and the little charmer is depicted on the cover speaks volumes as to the message being delivered by our boys:

http://www.ivyhall.district96.k12.il.us/4th/kkhp/1insects/katydid.html

This creature really is sly.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:43:14 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Earl; that was my alter egos opinion not mine ... see when he "walks in" my life begins again ... schizoid twins are we ... BUT it's only our opinion ... I was trying to sound impressed - honest !!

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:35:53 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, &

Raj - I don't buy the self-healer part. "You walked in" brings to mind a definite outside action. Plus, in the midst of a bender, that voice may call out, but without an external force to back it up or apply pressure, the voice is too easily rationalized away. Not that I know anything about that...

KC

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:33:55 ET
Posted by: Duke of Earl, Delaware

As with any interpretation, it's an opinion. Why is Berberian the only one allowed to ever have an opinion?

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:20:58 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Well that told us ...

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:20:20 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I'm now really leaning towards Katy being the stuff and Dr. Wu being the voice of the healer, I should say self-healer. Dr. Wu is the voice of reason and sobriety inside our narrator, that voice that visits you when you know you're doing something stupid or destructive. And Wu is finally overcome by the lovely and sly Katy.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 11:11:23 ET
Posted by: Duke of Earl, Delaware

"Katy" in Dr. Wu is probably a drug (I think we've gone over many instances in the past where drugs have been personifies). "She's lovely and she's sly" probably referring to both the effects as well as the lure.

Dr. Wu is obviously trying to help the narrator overcome his addictions. "Katy tried" is a reference to the drug doing it's best to kill him. "Halfway crucified" I think is a reference to the mindset of the narrator; his life is so important that he compares his life to that of the ultimate sacrifice. Maybe a sign of selfishness..."'I' was on the other side of no tomorrow."

"You walked in...borrow" - a sort of revelation in his life. A new beginning. He spent all of his money on this meaningless addiction, and this guy is helping him out for free.

"All night long...true" - his techniques (as described in an earlier post) basically healing him...the Doc was healing him through the chants.

"Are you...with me Doctor" - In maybe a twist to make it less autobiographical (or more, who knows the whole story???), the narrator later discovers the Doctor has succumbed to the lure of the drug. He's become the man that the narrator once was, and now the narrator tries to figure out where he goes from this point.

"Don't seem right...bring to me" - The narrator has relapsed. His mentor has fallen into the same pattern that he was in before, and so hasn't he. But the narrator is learning that the drug isn't what it's cracked up to be.

"Biscayne Bay...sing to me" - this is a difficult line - maybe he tries to get away from the addiction (and Doctor Wu) by trying to exile himself to a place that is relaxing to him (a lot like Becker's Hawaii), trying to find the calm that Doctor Wu gave him before he himself dropped into addiction.

"Katy lies...when I saw you" - He loses the battle. His addiction is too strong to overcome on his own. He returns from his trip, and sees Doctor Wu laying on the floor dead.

"Are you with...hear me Doctor" - Doctor Wu has OD'ed. Kind of a "Charlie Freak"-ish type of scene, where the narrator can't believe that the man that once healed him became the man he was/is. Can he now find himself in this world, after losing the only guy who cared about him???

Basically, the song has a lot of truth/false statements. The doctor's teachings were truth, while Katy was false. The retrospective nature shows that the narrator has used what happened to change his life.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 10:54:50 ET
Posted by: chillin at the manatee bar, Butler, Pa

Don't know if this was posted anywhere. Musicians Friend catalog is running a contest with the Grand Prize a trip to see Fourplay at the Barbados Jazz Festival. fourplay includes Bob James, Harvey Mason, Larry Carlton and Nathan East. Nov. 30 is deadline. Send postcard to Fourplay in Barbados Sweepstakes, PO box 4610, Medford, OR. 97501-4610. Include name, address, city state zip and phone number, email address also.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 10:16:28 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Mu & Kid come through. Nice you guys, color me enlightened. This song, so tuneful and pleasing to the ear, so brief in duration, is among a lot of peoples' favorites. The narrative is rich in plot and imagery, and, as we see, possibilities. I feel like I've rediscovered it. Okay, whom did he see at the end, Wu or Katy, or, as Q posits, Wu and Katy together? This song is a perfect example of what Don was saying to Lizzie in the back of the Taxicab, you know that SD lyrics don't seem to make sense but somehow make sense on some other level. There's a phantom sense, now you've got it, now you don't. Brigadoon. Will 'o the Wisp, Flying Dutchman stuff.

PS You people are awesome.

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 09:59:28 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, on the floor

LMAO!!

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 09:32:06 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

kc; That's easy for you two to say ...

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 09:21:08 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, crossing over

Interesting concept Beer's, it works well with the chorus but I don't see it fitting in with the verse's.

KC

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 06:51:03 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Howabout if the drugs induce a schizoid split in the taker and Dr Wu is in fact an alter ego (Dr Jeckyll) that emerges when he is high ... Are you with me Dr ? is him realising that the monster is about to re-appear ... Seems to me there are several things that point to a personality split thang

Are you with me Doctor Wu (getting ready to mutate)
Are you really just a shadow (me and my shadow)
Of the man that I once knew (That's me)
Are you crazy are you high (Evil Dr)
Or just an ordinary guy (pre drug person)
Have you done all you can do (Is that your best shot? - no pun)
Are you with me Doctor

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 06:30:44 ET
Posted by: Dave, the Mohel

Dr Wu a very serious song? Hey, it's like an episode of any of the dozen or two or three or .....10 p.m. cops shows through the years. This was written in the mid 70s? Dr Wu could have been an episode of Baretta or the Streets of San Francisco. Dr Wu not Funny? Steely Dan is always funny, just not yuck-it-up laff-track funny. The humor is all in how this clown thinks of Coke as a woman he's having a relationship with, just like how in Rose Darling that clown thinks of his fist as a woman he's having a relationship with, rather than a straight love song. Steely Dan isn't pee-in-your-pants funny necessarily, but they are funny in a witty and humorous way. Dr Wu has a sense of humor.

It's cool to dissect all the implications of "crucified" to death, T.Y. for explaining the Judas and betrayl, but I still say to much emphasis is being placed on one word or line. Way too clinical. Oy! How about the last line, where the guy seems to be pleading into infinisty, "Are you with me Doctor?"

Date: Wed, November 12, 2003, 00:41:27 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean,

Great discussion going on. Mu, I really enjoyed your deconstruction as well as PQ's and Raj's comments and everyone else's. I've really never delved deeply into this song so there has been quite a bit of enlightenment throughout the day.

Here's my couple of cents kind of strewn about...
As a preamble, according to M-W.com definition 2 of crucify is:
to destroy the power of : MORTIFY <crucify the flesh>.
Flip over to mortify and you get: to subdue or deaden (as the body or bodily appetites) especially by abstinence or self-inflicted pain or discomfort. How do you spell addiction?

Ok,
I think Katy is the smack, dope, etc. It 'tried' to take his life, he crossed over to the other side, i.e. death (no tomorrow) but at the last second, Wu walked in and pulled him back to the side of the living. Perhaps at this point he's a little ticked off at Wu, he'd just spent his last piaster to try and cross over, or kill himself, and got yanked back against his desire for the end. At the end of your rope death would seem a welcome change from the pain of living and the hopelessness of addiction. All night long we talked about the problem, the how's and why's and the what for's, 'that stupid song' and I know that it's all true, damn it!

Then he blacks out and crosses back over, but he's had a 'taste' of the truth and calls out for help, Have you done all you can do?

Then he fades back in once again. It ain't right, I've been hanging here in limbo all night waiting for more of the taste of life you gave to me earlier but I keep crossing back and forth and over there (where everyone sleeps all day i.e. they're dead)all I see is Katy staring at me, trying to draw me in and it might just work. Then he 'thinks' he's back with the living, he sees the good doctor but he seems to be not quite right. Has she finally got to you too, doc? Is it you, or her? Can you hear me doctor? Are YOU with me Doctor or is it her pretending to be you?

Up until the last few sentences here I was getting ready to state that it was actually a happy ending, 'Imagine my suprise when I saw you instead of her', like he'd actually made it out alive but that desperate calling for the Doctor at the end has me thinking that it was Katy in disguise.

What do ya think?????

KC

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 23:34:10 ET
Posted by: jeezioughtaeditjustonce, postingwhilelisteningtoRickieLeeJones

also

wounds

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 23:28:19 ET
Posted by: ,

brought

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 23:24:54 ET
Posted by: oops,

shrink

mind

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 23:23:06 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

You know I'd weigh in…there's something oddly comforting about your favorite song being one you can't quite completely grasp...and I almost got there…well UNTIL now - JOEY stumbled onto something!! I’d like to slap and kiss you!

Call your doctor, call your shink. Western science she strictly rinky dink


Source: The Steely Dan Dictionary: “Doctor Jing Nuan Wu, an acupuncturist based in Washington DC. Emigrated from China to the US at a young age and graduated from Harvard to become a Wall Street venture capitalist, finally setting up a Taoist clinic in the Washington in 1973. Apparently helped Donald Fagen to overcome drug addiction in the mid-70s, hence the song.”

An independent source!!!

http://www.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2460

“Dr. Wu was born in Tai Shan, in the province of Giangzhou, China and immigrated to the United States from China as a small child. He was a laundryman's son who graduated from Harvard University to become a successful venture capitalist on Wall Street.

Reconnecting with his Eastern roots, Wu journeyed to Hong Kong to study Chinese philosophy and healing. He received his degree (Oriental Medical Doctorate) from Hong Kong University in 1956.

He then practiced acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine for over 30 years in Washington, D.C. at the Green Cross Clinic and the Taoist Health Institute, which he founded in 1973. The Green Cross Clinic was a pioneering, multi-ethnic clinic that was the first to provide acupuncture detoxification treatment in Washington, D.C. and one of the only clinics in the U.S. that provided care on a sliding scale. Dr. Wu translated the book of Yi Jing (I Ching), the ancient Taoist book of Divination as well as Ling Shu (Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic), the first known inner treatise on acupuncture. In addition, he prepared the first fully illustrated English version of the Chinese Materia Medica that is being published by Oxford University Press and will be available in 2003. He was widely known and loved.”

“…His paintings and sculpture are therapeutic devices, used to promote health, balance, and relaxation by communicating with the inner aspects of one's being. Traditional Chinese Medicine says there are three levels of energy that interact in a continuing dynamic. Externally, the three are heaven, man, and earth. Internally, they are shen (spirit), jing (essence), and qi (energy). All of these resonate with each other. When they are in harmony, there is health. When in dissonance, there is illness.

In Wu's words, "I attempt with my art to change the clockwork of our inner being to the most beneficial and health-inducing rhythm. When reset and unburdened from the ties of anxiety, stress, and social pressure, one's being enters a calm field where new patterns of behavior can develop and take hold."’

Dr. Wu translated many Chinese books on Holistic Medicine

Dr. Wu died recently on December 3, 2002


With that in midn

DR WU


"Katy tried
I was halfway crucified"

Girlfriend Katy took me to the holistic detox clinic. I was halfway through my acupuncture sessions (crucified, needles - get it we the listeners have been needled all these years!)...alos a pun related to a smack needle in one arm...Dr Wu tells me if I Ching, art, nature, herbs, and meditation can bring my energy back into this balance and my health will return

An irony - the protagonist is using a Western needle to escape from the Western World using a drug whose base (opium) has Eastern origins and history...

"I was on the other side
Of no tomorrow"

Man, but I'm still strung out

"You walked in
And my life began again"

The dealer/friend walks in with his whole itchy approach

"Just when I'd spent the last piaster
I could borrow"

Dude, I needed this fix bad

"All night long
We would sing that stupid song
And every word we sang
I knew was true"

One of Dr Wu's affirming chants OR what is below

"Are you with me Doctor Wu
Are you really just a shadow
Of the man that I once knew
Are you crazy are you high
Or just an ordinary guy
Have you done all you can do
Are you with me Doctor"

Dealer/friend and I poke a little fun at Dr. Wu...I mean the guy gave up millions to start this crock clinic...what kind of a nutjob is he?? typical American view...

"Don't seem right
I've been strung out here all night
I've been waiting for the taste
You said you'd bring to me"

OK, dealer/friend, where the f*ck are you? Where is Dr Wu?

"Biscayne Bay
Where the Cuban gentlemen sleep all day"

Dr Wu sez: "I attempt with my art to change the clockwork of our inner being to the most beneficial and health-inducing rhythm. When reset and unburdened from the ties of anxiety, stress, and social pressure, one's being enters a calm field where new patterns of behavior can develop and take hold."

Cuban ex-Patriots use a beautiful landscape and the calming effect of the sea to salve their wonds of their lost home.

"I went searching for the song
You used to sing to me"

Just what WAS that chant Dr Wu came up with to try to knock me off this high horse?

"Katy lies
You could see it in her eyes"

Katy told me that she would take me back to the good Doctor in the shape I'm in...yeah, right - hey, I'm dying here!...

"But imagine my surprise
When I saw you"

Wow, it is the good Doc!

"Are you with me Doctor Wu
Are you really just a shadow
Of the man that I once knew
She is lovely yes she's sly
And you're an ordinary guy
Has she finally got to you
Can you hear me Doctor"

OK, here it gets tricky - in the protagonist's mind, Katy has saved him and grought him to the comfort of the good Dr. Wu...but if you turn it way up, notice how Fagen is SCREAMING more fervently with each "Are you with me doctor?"

Possible Steely Dan twists:

(1) Protagonist has actually OD'd and what he thinks is Dr. Wu is a hallucination as he fades out (and clocks out) in the ER - the image is warped from the ER doc standing over him...

(2) It's not Dr. Wu, but the men in the white coats taking him away

(3) It is Dr Wu...but the protagonist skips into another dimension just as he is in the good doctor's hands

Thus we have quite a bit of dark humor with the ironic ending no matter which assumed ending fits the storyline best (I'm favoring #1...and some Bodhisattva East/West play)

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 23:03:54 ET
Posted by: norm,

Speaking of the Sweet book, does anyone remember the quote (I forget who) about the "stupid song" being Visions Of Johanna by Dylan? It was on a tape their roadie would play at every soundcheck. So yeah, while Dr. Wu is a serious tune, there's at least a little comic relief, if only for the writers who get their own private joke.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 22:50:08 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Q - yes, the whole lyric addresses Dr. Wu. But no, we have no direct evidence Wu & Katy are together. Me, personally, I think you're right. Also, it is unclear to whom the "you walked in" personage belongs to. It could also be Katy.

This song is defiant to deconstruction.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 22:19:09 ET
Posted by: angel,

Peter Q: That quote is over on Fever Dreams. It says Brian Sweet quoted it in his book Reelin' In The Years.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 22:12:14 ET
Posted by: jim,

PeterQ:
I appeeciate all the thought and am really impressed by all you are getting out of it, but i just think this whole crucifixion thing is over emphasized. Just my two cents. Please, don't dwell on the crucifixion but on the risen Steely Dan! They iz way too fun is all I'm taking it as. :-)

Sincerely,

jim

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 21:43:50 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

IMHO the point is that while he's halfway crucified, Wu and Katy are off somewhere together. When Wu (his dealer) shows up, his life begins again (all real time interaction in the song is between Wu and the speaker, is it not? Katy appears only by means of being alluded to. The 'you' that the speaker addresses is Wu.)

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 21:35:26 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Actually that excellent quote in Beerberian's post of 6:27 am today is definitive confirmation, and it comes right from the source - the songs have definite PATTERNS. Where is that quote from Beerberian?

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 21:33:10 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, Extreme License

Century's End was maybe the third or fourth "Dan" song I covered. It was a major challenge adapting it to the solo-acoustic performance style I do.There were just so many chords per measure and the cascading melody boppin' up and down was a challenge for me as a singer as well.I was especially thankful to Stevee Dan for sending me a beautifully executed chart which motivated me to modify a few parts of the song making it less " folky" ( for want of a better word) and more Dan-like authentic.There may be a version on Hoops' internet radio station.I now have one that is more pleasing to me ; better played and sung.It gave me a lot of confidence when I nailed Century's End because I had never done anything so complex.I just kept going and learned one Steely Dan song after another after that.

I think I sing the line, " By now it's second nature "

I love that song. It really captures a time and the prevailing mood.It may be the only Steely Dan song that's dated.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 18:13:06 ET
Posted by: angel,

Katy....interesting that he called the song "stupid" and then later goes off to Biscane Bay in search of that same song....

Mu: Back to the lyrics to Century's End. (since I was listening today, with a copy of your best guess lyric)
2nd chorus has a different final lyric.
"Right now it's second nature"

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 16:53:22 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Katy is an intimate of our narrator. She walked in and his life began again. He's broke. They sit up all night playing that stupid song (that song could also be da stuff as in they're doing it all night long, over and over). Katy tried when he was half way crucified and came through with the dope, the drugs, the shit. Or maybe Katy IS the stuff. But then one night she doesn't show. She'd promised to bring him a taste. He's strung out now. Maybe she went to see Dr. Wu to score the stuff, or, like I say, Katy is the stuff that is no more. In any case, she lies, yes she's sly. Whose the ordinary guy? Dr. Wu could be his supplier, could be an incarnation of his when he gets strung out, kinda the opposite of Dr. Feelgood. Imagine his surprise when he saw...who? Wu? Katy? Wu & Katy? He seems to be warning Dr. Wu about her.

In any case and no matter how you may interpret these people or the embodiments of the addiction as character, Katy lies, she betrays our boy. So these are the elements: he's halfway crucified. His own has betrayed him. Dats where I got it.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 16:33:09 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

At the risk of being called arrogant, etc. , the poets of the late 60s who were the rage while B&F were at bard have influenced

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 16:06:27 ET
Posted by: Dave,

Judas holds up nicely because of the crucified reference? Huh?

Judas is all about Betrayal, he wasn't even at the Crucifixion. He hung himself earlier.

But what do I know? I'm a Jew and basing this on seeing Jesus Christ Superstar.

Please explain more, Raj.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 14:38:09 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Definitely Mark Twain. Cousin Dupree could've been a runaway from one of his short stories.

Katy as Judas does hold up rather nicely because of the "crucified" reference.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 13:30:08 ET
Posted by: WJAZ, Ruralville,North Carolina

Greetings to all in Blue Land...

I was reading Hoops post of November 6th, and I would like to address what I caught in The Green Room last night. Apparently, there was some soul out there using the WJAZ call letters to bother some folks.

I have not been around in awhile and was unaware any of this was going on. The folks in The Green Room could not have been any kinder or trusting than they were to me last night. Thanks to all who were there, now maybe with Hoops' password situation we have moved past those things happening.

Thanks for listening, and I will get my big black couch and get out of here...

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 13:08:03 ET
Posted by: jim,

Even more cool is that Dan is a great guy a Dandom Digestian! Great to see his dictionary (which is listed at the top of every Dandom Digest) get a nod.

Go Dan! Go!

jim

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:58:02 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" PS Check this article in todays MSNBC site:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/946039.asp?0ql=c7p

The Beatles and Steely Dan. Nice company. "

Great Links !!!! Thanks Rajah .

Did you cach the " Fever Dreams " applet on the " Steely Dan Dictionary Web Page " ? Good Stuff !

Joey !

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:57:57 ET
Posted by: jim, ~

I hear a lot of Mark Twain, if you ask me.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:49:49 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

SD lyrics remind me of Samuel Taylor Coleridge and, of course, William Blake. With those poets of the Romantic Period, it's always a puzzle that needed to be pieced together. But if you think the puzzle will ever be assembled to everyone's satisfaction, you're dreaming.

Also, I hear a lot of Dante's Inferno in there. Dante spun shady character studies of historical and contemporary personages of the day, sending the literati scrurrying around trying to figure who was whom. It became a parlor game.

BTW, the Southern Belles I've known were anything but dim. They kill you with good manners and prohibitive feminine charm, then quickly expose all your inconsistencies. Alabama and Carolina girls, anyway. Oh, but there are perks, fellas.

Earthmen have no defense against that army wearing pumps and pearls.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:41:46 ET
Posted by: jim,

(Sorry if you have seen this opinion before.)

I don't agree that "Josie" should have been left out.

But say Steely Dan was considering that, I think after they got Carlock, they had to do it, so as to once and for all perfect the drum solo. They've been great through the years, but Carlock's the one I NEVER got tired of. For that one reason, they HAD to do "Josie" this year. And I think Josie's glad she finally got done right.

jim

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:37:51 ET
Posted by: Jim, Goodbye, God, I'm headed to Chicago

Joey:
"Now THAT is posting my Steely Brothers and Sisters !!!!!!! ...Breathtaking."

Yes. the post is well written, and even offers some interesting factoids about ancient culture. BUT, some of it's opinion stated as fact.

Peter Q:
Be inspired to interpret "Dr Wu" seriously if you like; however; Becker and Fagen have said more than a few times, they are not done writing a song until it has a sense of humor. (That's in the tradition of Armstrong, Ellington and Horace Silver.)

As far as "Christian" imagery pervading their songs, heck, these guys draw on all sorts of cultures that ultimately all fall together in their snarky commentary on America. Again, great writing inspired by the Dan, Peter, but by no means definitive.

No, Katy wasn't crucified and Peter hasn't persuaded me a bit; however, the writing is entertaining. I also enjoyed Fife's take on Josie as a Catholic girl with a rosary in her hand and the hem of her white skirt up around her neck. Sorry, don't get the Judas thing at all. People going a little too far, IMHO.

Remember way back when in '95, when three people supposedly wrote this very convincing disucssion-as-fact for the Digest that "Chain Lightning" was about a gay gang bang? Put it in perspective.

jim

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 12:06:58 ET
Posted by: Spike's Moll, Kentucky

I tend to analyze Steely's song lyrics the same way I would a poem. I love the symbolism used in Dr.Wu, and several others as well. We Southern Belles may be dim, but fortunately I had an outstanding English teacher in High School. ;-) Moreover, I was never stupid enough to leave my money or car with someone so unsavory that they'd steal both at the first opportunity.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 11:48:42 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" Why they continue to eschew this tune in concert has to be viewed as a statement. It has been sooo conspicuous by its abscence. Maybe it just brings up too many bad memories is all I can guess. "

Amen My Rajah !!!!! I too would love to posit this question to Donald and Walt .

Better than hearing " Josie " again for the one hundredth time THAT'S for sure .

................Oh , and bring back " Deacon Blues " to the set list .

Jacky !

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 11:13:53 ET
Posted by: fife, our nations capital

This chorus struck me as I study the lyrics, it's always been about the music for me as far as SD is concerned:

Throw back the little ones and pan-fry the big ones
use tact, poise and reason
and gently squeeze them

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 10:58:32 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I could better accept a scenario of our guy in Katy being so strung out that he felt halfway crucified, but I do like the visual evoked by your imagery of the needle.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 10:46:29 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

Rajah; The Needle is ONE of TWO nails required for a crucifixion ie halfway ... Although standard crucifixion rarely involved nails just ropes.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 10:16:12 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

PS Check this article in todays MSNBC site:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/946039.asp?0ql=c7p

The Beatles and Steely Dan. Nice company.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 10:00:42 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Great stuff here, we haven't lost it.

How about Josie as a modern-day Priestess of Venus, a ritual prostitute licensed by the state to offer her services under the aegis and umbrella of the Roman state. Typically, a ritual prayer would precede the festivities, which, in this case, is a ritual orgy. This was common in pre-Christian Rome. Remember to bring your hats and hooters to the ritual. It's a homecoming for Josie. The community is very proud of her.

Katy is a Judas Iscariot figure, fer shur, she leaves the poor bastard hangin for his fixx, halfway crucified. I frankly don't get the connection with the needle in the arm appropos to halfway crucified. This song is very dark and scary to say the least, in stark contrast with the dreamy melody, maybe the prettiest musical turn in all of Dan. Why they continue to eschew this tune in concert has to be viewed as a statement. It has been sooo conspicuous by its abscence. Maybe it just brings up too many bad memories is all I can guess.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 09:32:49 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

Ladies and Gentlemen ..............................


Do you see the post By Peter Q down below ??????????

Do you see it ?!?!?!?!?!

Now THAT is posting my Steely Brothers and Sisters !!!!!!!


Breathtaking !

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 06:29:48 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

I think if you take lyrics of one or two songs in isolation then yeah, you could say the meaning is totally open to interpretation and it can mean whatever you want it to mean. However, when you have a body of work of more than a hundred songs it is indisputable, and inevitable, that certain themes begin to emerge over and over and over again. Steely Dan songs work the same themes over and over and over again (Which is normal and natural, it's true of most song lyricists or, for that matter, poets or prose writers).

Many of their songs make use of very specific Christian images and it does not seem to me that these images are placed in the songs by accident. "Crucified" refers to being killed as a result of having been BETRAYED by somebody - Judas Iscariot, your junkie-ass girlfriend Katy, whomever. In general we associate "crucify" with a betrayal, even if that's not quite the literal dictionary meaning.

Jim - I respectfully disagree about their being humor and/or wit in Wu. I think the song is very serious. Not only because of the main little tale that is told about a drug lord winning the (false) loyalty of one of his customer's girlfriends, but because of the brilliant stroke of referring to the big bad world at large that exists outside the sleazy little menage by use of the line "Biscayne Bay/where the Cuban gentleman sleep all day."

This contrast of a personal little private hell (narrator's) with that of a huge global event (getting rid of Castro) shows us how many different levels pain, suffering, and various causes whether they be personal or political, can operate on. While the junkie cringes in withdrawal, waiting for Wu to show up with "remedies," the Cuban gentleman, powerless to get rid of Fidel, just sleep. In the natural beauty of Biscayne Bay all kinds of differing human dramas play out. Under the lightly swaying palm trees, The Cubans are as bored and unconcerned with the narrator's problems as he is with theirs.

Nor is the injection of "pray" into the other song an accident either. Many other words would have fit just as well, syllabically. It could have been "Looks" , "sings", whatever. Many words would fit. The use of "pray" is very specific. "Like a Roman with her eyes on fire" refers to the Roman soldiers who crucified. Bacchanalia swirls around Josie as it did around them. Etc.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 06:27:22 ET
Posted by: Beerberian, @it

I thought "prays like a Roman" referred to the act of public avowing - common in those times - Arms held out in supplication making a bargain with your god (or devil ?) selling your soul in the act. Eyes on fire indicates the passion in the prayer or perhaps a reflection from the sacarificial flame being offered to ... Just a thought ...

Donald Fagen: " "Doctor Wu" is about a triangle, kind of a love-dope triangle. I think usually when we do write songs of a romantic nature, one or more of the participants in the alliance will come under the influence of someone else or some other way of life and that will usually end up in either some sort of compromise or a split. Okay, in this song a girl meets somebody who leads another kind of life and she's attracted to it. Then she comes under the domination of someone else and that results in the ending of the relationship or some amending of the relationship. When we start writing songs like that, that's the way it usually goes. In "Doctor Wu" the "someone else" is a dope habit personified as Doctor Wu. In "Haitian Divorce" it's a hotel gigolo. The details of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" and "Through With Buzz" are vaguer but the pattern is the same."

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 02:46:23 ET
Posted by: SteveeDan,

Fife - I agree that you should take the meaning in any way that you like. There are some very clever minds who write in about why they think a lyric means one thing or another. And even though some of these opinions come with well supported points, I still say, that if you think a lyric means something to you, it really doesn't matter what someone else says, no matter how well supported their viewpoint is.

And on that same point, Oleander, I too think that the "half-way crucified = needle in the arm" viewpoint is brilliant. I never took it to mean that until it was posted here (or on the yellow) whenever that was.

I still remember what I think that line meant to me, I just now accept a more expanded meaning to it now. I'm not as big on deconstructing the lyrics as I am on mastering the music, but I am still totally enthralled by the discussions on Steely Dan lyrics. Keep 'em coming !


SteveeDan

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 02:07:28 ET
Posted by: oleander, conflated heroines

Katy is not Josie. Josie is a tough, charismatic riot grrrl who's back in black. Katy is a user, a betrayer. IMO.

My favorite take on "halfway crucified" is last visible dog's--it's with a needle in one arm. Brilliant.

And Josie prays like a Roman in dissolute, crazy Nero's time as Rome burns around her. IMO.

But, fife, I gotta love the vision of the mantilla and beads. If they had wanted everyone to have one view of the lyrics, they would have published commentary long ago.

Dammit, I was looking forward to that Joni trib.

Date: Tues, November 11, 2003, 00:38:54 ET
Posted by: Mother Teresa, Heaven

My dear Fife. Don't worry your precious head with justifications or guilt of any sort. You have suffered enough, you enjoy those song s in your sweet precious own way that makes you have fun. No need to justify anytihng. We all deserve to have fun and Looove. Everything must go...guilt too. That's what Sts. Walter and Donald are 'a sayin'. L-U-V.

Holy wine anyone?

MT

P.S. I think God has crabs in his beard! Be careful!

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 23:48:05 ET
Posted by: fife, canada, eh

Roman adj
1: of or relating to Rome or the people of Rome, characteristics of ancient Romans
2: of or relating to the Roman alphabet
3:relating to a type style with upright characters
4: of or relating to the see of Rome or the Roman Catholic church
5: having a semicircular intrados
6: having a promient and slighty aquiline bridge

take your pick

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 23:30:39 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

The "Roman" in Josie, as in "prays lika a" is referencing the Roman Republic/Empire, not the Roman Catholic Church, you guys. Yikes, let's review:

Roman = pagan

Katy's world is Christian milieu, no?

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 23:19:48 ET
Posted by: fife, see below

The one thing I always loved about music and lyrics was the idea that i could take them for what I heard in them. Usually this meant applying them to my own life experiences, ie Josie praying like a Roman with her on eyes on fire, Roman Catholism and as I was baptised in a roman catholic church and hung out with a few in my time, this was the image this line induced in me. I hope Don wasn't being a hypocrite when he said the great thing about songs was you could use your imagination and make it yours, or rather thats what I got.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 22:28:09 ET
Posted by: Mother Teresa, Heaven

All the Catholic girls are like....????? What next, Jewish women?

I talked to the Big Guy. Josie's a Pagan, she has no shame or scrupples --and that's nice she brings such pleasure to the world.

Ciao,

MT

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 22:23:04 ET
Posted by: fife, hockey, gay marriages, and a stoned prime minister live

I always thought that Josie was Roman Catholic, I could actually see her with the lace manilla on her head and her rosary beads in hand; because really we all know what catholic girls are like.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 22:20:43 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

I screwed up: Katy wasn't half-way crucified, our narrator was. She's part of the Christian landscape, though, anywhere from a supernumerary to Jesus hisself. Somewhere in there.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 22:05:25 ET
Posted by: jim,

Right on, Rajah!

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 21:54:56 ET
Posted by: jim,

Sorry my friend Peter_Q., I don't buy the connection, except perhaps both being images of the crucifixion and, clearly, you'll agree, it's meant with a certain level of slang or wit. For one, I believe it is the narrator in "Katy Lied," who is telling is story, who felt half-way crucified, not Katy. And, hell, Josie's just got those eyes that are so intensely passionate that she could body-slam you to the floor with just a glance.

Convince me utterwise :-)

jim

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 21:39:44 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Josie is a pagan goddess, she prays like a Roman; Katy is half-way crucified because, amongst other things, her Christian guilt. They cannot be one, oh Q.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 21:30:18 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Kid - there's a few typos.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 21:27:09 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Katy..." I was halfway crucified" - very specific Christian imagery....Josie "prays like a Roman with her eyes on fire", very specific reference to those who committed the crucifixion (unless you believe "prays like a Roman with her eyes on fire" means she looks like Anita Ekberg in La Dolce Vita, or something)...if not the same exact girl, certainly two examples of the same type? Surely.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 16:41:19 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, the

H - I thought you might have stumbled across some of the crack that got lost in your backseat but I checked a couple of sites and it is 'Walk Between Raindrops' on the album. I had never noticed that, maybe I need to find some old rocks.... Anywho, On the ODP lyrics page it's listed as 'Walk Between the Raindrops'. A typo on the home site???

Which came first, the space or the 'the'? hmmmmmm


KC

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 16:22:14 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" Katy is Josie by the way. "

You make Joey say ...............huh ?!?!?!

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 14:23:38 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

How did you arrive at Katy being the same as Josie?

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 14:02:41 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Hoops, Yellow peril does not appear in the words, however, Josie does (Josie back home on his mind).

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:51:46 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Hey Angel, I also thought about the Toodle-OO. :-)

Of course, that leads to what about those "grey area" recorings from 1968-71, the songs packaged as "Catalyst," "Stone Piano," etc.? We don't have all the lyrics but does "Yellow Peril" mention the title in its lyrics?

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:41:29 ET
Posted by: angel,

and Katy did, too.... :-)
Oops, went by memory. Always a bad thing.
So then that one is an album title that doesn't have a track with its exact name on it.

I was going to mention ESL Toodle-oo, but decided that it had no words....

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:31:37 ET
Posted by: jim,

...but cheese stands alone.

All this trivia and misheard lyrics got me thinking of my two most common errors in titles (others do the same often enough:

"Walk Between 'the' Raindrops"
"Deacon Blue"

I've read that "Walk Between Raindrops" is based on a Jewish fable or something. Hmmm…wonder if the subtley of leaving "the" out of "Walk Between Raindrops" is significant. Something to ponder next time I get tired of contemplating infinity, which I heard will drive you mad.

jim

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:25:07 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

And Pixeleen is Josie's daughter.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:15:18 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Katy is Josie by the way.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:12:51 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, a second thought

I forgot one - East St. Louis Toodle-OO!

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:12:48 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, @@

Delving into the lyrics brought a couple of misheard lyrics to my
attention. Both from Kid Charlemagne:

1) Heard - But yours was kempt and clean
actual - kitchen clean

2) Heard - Now all your papers have left you in the red
actual - patrons

I should be flogged.

KC

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 13:04:19 ET
Posted by: Russ,

Actually the song Angel is referring to is Dr. Wu, which is mentioned in the song lyrics so it doesn't count

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 12:53:31 ET
Posted by: Kid Clean, workin'

Caves of Altamira


KC

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 12:52:27 ET
Posted by: angel, Take 2

tried

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 12:51:00 ET
Posted by: angel,

Katy Lied
She tries and she lies, but she never lied.

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 12:42:19 ET
Posted by: Gretchen, working with the boyz, uptown baby

Good one, Jim. Here's what I came up with:
Kings - you hear "Good King Richard" and "Good King John" but never do they mention "kings" as a lyric.

Your Gold Teeth II - Ok, maybe I'm being over technical, but they don't say II!

Show Biz Kids-They are referred to as "Show Business Kids" in the song

Pretzel Logic-not a word

G

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 12:34:31 ET
Posted by: Jim,

Here's a trivia thread:

What SD, DF & WB songs have titles that aren't mentioned anywhere in the song's lyrics?

"I.G.Y." got me thinking of that—but of course, some single versions of the song had it sub-titled "I.G.Y. ("What a A Beautiful World"). I think that was more Warner Bros' doing to "make it more marketable" or something. Didn't some versions also spell out in parens, "International Geophysical Year."

So what other SD-related songs don't mention the songs in the lyrics?

jim

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 10:14:44 ET
Posted by: Elmer Fudd, Be vewy, vewy qwiet, cwock evewyfing you see

Loon season now open.
Fiwre at wiwl.

huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 09:21:18 ET
Posted by: Russ,

Of course I'll take it if DF and/or WB decide to do solo albums next, but I'm still hoping they continue on as SD and do a follow-up to EMG because that would be best. To me, the SD whole is greater than the sum of its parts, etc. etc

Date: Mon, November 10, 2003, 01:09:43 ET
Posted by: Skip,

I meant to post this a month ago...I recently saw Bela Fleck and the Flecktones perform at GWU in D.C. on October 11th. During the intermission they played 3/4ths of the EMG album. Kinda cool....On another related note. A Baltimore based Pinl Floyd cover band www.severalspecies.com also played SD tracks during their intermission a while back.

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 23:45:58 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, The Home Depot

Caught Blues Beach over the Muzak, funkin' down the insulation isle at The Home Depot today. Brought me back to the Steely Summer of '03.

Underappreciated, this song's layers of symbolism and cosmic wisdom barely touched upon by this board.

Outside... chillin'

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 19:21:22 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Word is that the Joni Mitchell tribute has been shelved indefinitely and perhaps for years. Remember the buzz that generated back in June 2001 when we first got word via Roger Nichols' site?

Love Joni. Love Steely Dan. Gotta be funny having Donald sing Joni's lyrics, picturing Donald with beach tar on his feet and putting on his silver.

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 18:46:08 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Request to Mystery Guest: Please email me as you suggest.

thanks

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 17:58:52 ET
Posted by: Larry, Jersey

Anyone know what ever happened to the Joni Mitchell tribute cd that was to come out? Been waiting a long time to hear Steely Dans cover of Carey. Larry

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 09:52:31 ET
Posted by: Abu2, In the Spirit of the Holidays

It will be interesting (and I dare them) for the malls to play a Muzak version of The Last Mall on their sound systems for the Holidays!

Rollin my cart back up te aisle

Date: Sun, November 09, 2003, 01:28:00 ET
Posted by: Javier "Jive Miguel" Moreno, Main St. (there you go)

Musak Alert: As some of you already know, I am making my career as a retail sales guy at SportMart, and every day I listen to a lot of crappy and terrible songs... jeez, I can't believe it how bad they are. HOWEVER, the spark of the day comes when "Blues Beach" washes up the speakers.

J.

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 20:27:11 ET
Posted by: Still Sparkin', China

According to the setlist on the joe jackson website, he peformed Any Major Dude last year with his original band as they prepared for a tour with a new album (Volume Four).

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 20:05:04 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Florida Room is even funnier.

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 19:10:05 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

C'mon now, Donald and the movie power ballad lady? What the heck is this gonna sound like? Donald does the sensitive lyrics? We've heard Walk Between the Raindrops. I thought it was a comedy track first time through. What next, Donald does show tunes? I don't buy it somehow. Maybe a tune or two for a movie is what I'm thinking.

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 14:29:22 ET
Posted by: Javier Moreno, Barranquilla, Colombia

Carole Bayer Sager, huh? Well, call me cheesy, but I like what she did with Burt Bacharach and Christopher Cross... That Arthur song is very, very powerful, believe it or not. At least for me. My late Grandfather loved "On My Own", written by CBS and BB and performed by Michael McDonald and Patty LaBelle. Maybe Donald Fagen is getting a new solo album ready for 2004, and this time he'll present tunes penned by Carole and himself!

I hope he doesn't start writing songs with Dianne Warren.

Hoops, if you have pictures of the predan event -Concord-, please let me know.

Javier.

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 13:45:38 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Housewife:
Thanks for the reminder of the Fox news item from last May about DF & Carole BS writing together. Actually, someone here who works for Fox posted it back then. As a footnote, a subsequent story (not from Fox, and from a few days later in May) had DF working with Carole BS for a song or two and then other songwriters as well.

I wonder how far he will take it. I expect DF and hopefully WB as well will do solo albums next, but we all know how long it took DF to get "Kama" done. Still I like Mu's numerology thought...1982...1993...2004?

jim

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 12:22:14 ET
Posted by: Beautiful Housewife, deep distress

Hey, Kids!

I'll post this again for the benefit of those who left their sense of humor at home and, like children, need everything explained to them in the simplest minute detail. No wonder Donald and Walter get so goshdarned exasperated! And you all (for the most part) call yourselves Steely Dan fans! Shame on you!

Go here (copy and paste address on your browser as necessary):

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,87073,00.html#3

Can't wait to see the offspring of this collaboration!

Enjoy your day. See you soon, Hoops ;-)!

BH

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 12:02:59 ET
Posted by: hoops,

I believe Joe Jackon has performed "Junkie Girl" live.

There's still ticks available for RLJ at the Chicago Theatre next Thursday.

jim

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 10:46:41 ET
Posted by: Nazman, City of Correction

I should say RLJ and Joe Jackson doing THEIR take of Show Biz Kids...

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 10:33:39 ET
Posted by: Nazman, D.C. Fantasy

Leo
Thanks for the ref re; the Ricki Lee Jones' video on her website doing her take of Show Biz Kids. Just great stuff. Reminds me of the day she came to my little town and it was one very magical evening. The crowd lit up the moment she walked out and it just got better and better as the night unfolded. That Rickie Lee is somethin' special. She's in D.C. tomorrow night so i called family in that area although i would be surprised if that show isn't SOLD OUT! She's a hot ticket.

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 10:24:35 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, 7th Avenue

Bill of Steel City ~

On the RLJ thread, the links between DF and WB to RLJ are old news. I was only noting the interesting lyrical links between Ghost Train as produced by WB and lyrics from Glam Prof. On a related link, you are correct that Mr. Joe Jackson (a steely fan himself)plays piano for RLJ on "Show Biz Kids" featured on her album of covers called "It's Like This." I have seen Joe J several times in the last 3 years and I have heard him cover King of the World, Show Biz Kids and Reelin' in the Years. A Steely Dan/Joe J concert would be very tasty. If y'all have not already done so, I highly recommend Mr. Jackson's "Night and Day II" and the new one by the original members of the the Joe J Band "Volume 4."

Out here.

Lonnie

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 09:56:10 ET
Posted by: Lars,

There's a take on the "turn up the eagles" vs. "steely knives" in the booklet to Eagles new compliation (The Complete Greatest Hits; Glenn Frey says/writes:

"They stab ...." was a little Post-It back to Steely Dan. Apparently, Walter Becker's girlfirend loved the Eagles, and she played them all the time. I think it drove him to nuts. So, the story goes that they were having a fight one day, and that was the genesis of the line "turn up the Eagles, the neighbors are listening" in "Everything You Did," from Steely Dan's The Royal Scam album. During the writing of "Hotel California," we decided to volley. We just wanted to allude to Steely Dan rather than mentioning them outright, so "Dan" got changed to "knives" which is still, you know, a penile metaphor."

Later, still about the lyrics to "Hotel California":

"So we thought "Let's really take some chances. Let's try to write in a way that we've never written before". Steely Dan inspired us because of their lyrical bravery and willingness to go "out there". So, for us, "Hotel California" was about thinking and writing outside the box"

Date: Sat, November 08, 2003, 03:15:11 ET
Posted by: Leo,

I don't know if this was talked about but... if you go to rickieleejones.com you can find a video version of Show Biz Kids. It's live from Seattle in 2000. Joe Jackson is playing keys and singing back ground. Drew Zing is playing gituar and singing as well. It's kind of strange they way the do it.

Doesn't Joe cover a few Steely songs on his records? I know one is King Of The World.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 23:59:28 ET
Posted by: bwaySteve, Godwhacker Fun

My favorite thing to do while listening to Godwhacker is quite exciting.I velcro myself to the top of my cousin Matt's Lincoln.He drives really fast weaving in and out of traffic across the 59th Street bridge all the while listening to a continuous loop of Godwhacker. It's slammin' .You're up really high, Manhattan shimmering in front of you, the East River way down below . It's like you're flying. We get a slice at Ray's on 1St Ave and then do it again back to Queens. We've done it twice.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 19:41:10 ET
Posted by: John Barthlowiack, Ann Arbor, MI

Leave it to a guy with a funny last name like me to be a fan of both 11TOW and Godwhacker.

Just a shout out to all of you Dan fans from the tour. It was a blast!

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 18:48:09 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Give that man some whackin' space.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 18:24:03 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

Gretchen, DAvis: No, and I would say that "your almight ass" would not be a good pick-up line


my Rx is Walk Between Raindrops - repeat as necessary and send me your pic shots in the morning...

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 18:13:07 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Bill...Actually I was thinking about Will Lee. But if I'm not mistaken Ford even played with Burt Bacharach...from Miles to Burt and everything in between.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 17:12:21 ET
Posted by: Joey ,

" I just fell in love again with Tiger Walk-
how about Steve Jordan's crashing snare!! "

Or Tony Thompson's ( Chic ) well-judged , snare thunderstorm that opens up the title cut to Diana Ross' 1980 Masterpiece " I'm Coming Out " ...................... Stand Back Ms. Ross .

Jacky !

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 17:00:44 ET
Posted by: Lutz, Bay Area

Great choices PeterQ, I just fell in love again with Tiger Walk-
how about Steve Jordan's crashing snare!! Drayton plays some hip bass here, although I've seen him live with Bullock playing drums.
Pretty cool...

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 16:36:33 ET
Posted by: Bill, pittsburgh

Who, Peter? Don't leave us hanging.

My money is on Larry Carlton. Robben Ford started out as his protoge as I recall, and also used to play a good bit of sax.

Of course I'm one of those guys that tends to finish other people's sentences.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 16:14:01 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Leo - my post was about jamming, not surgical construction.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 16:11:07 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Lutz - I agree, every song on Tiger Walk is strong, especially Freedom, Oasis, and Red Lady W. Cello...I think the only person with a resume' even approximating Robben Ford's was

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 16:07:38 ET
Posted by: Leo,

Peter Q: Robben Ford had his chance with the Dan. He was one of many who tried to play the solo on Peg. His cut didn't make it. Jay Graydon got the gig.

Holy ear candy!

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:40:22 ET
Posted by: Lutz, Bay Area

PeterQ,
I agree with R Ford beeing great and he can jam and would sound good with SD for sure.
Tiger walk is my fav. album, rec. with the east coast guys.
Saw the Ford/Haslip/Colauita shows last winter, what a band!
Ford is as underrated as Clapton and Santana are overrated (imo), the latter went onstage with him last year at the Fillmore and sounded pretty pathetic -he seems to be playing the same 5 high notes forever...

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:23:07 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Well, that's no surprise, Davis. I suggest you also avoid, in those moments, Charlie Freak, Monkey In Your Soul, With A Gun, and Slang of Ages! All great songs, but not background music for every occasion.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:14:35 ET
Posted by: davis, Boston

Grethen

I had the whole album playing, I agree God Whacker is not the best for that, as I found out first hand. As soon as it ended, My Little Birdy Friend" flew the coop!!!

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:11:47 ET
Posted by: Rcray, NYU

Hey gretch how 'bout Babylon Sisters as a night cap with your significant other?

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:10:14 ET
Posted by: Rcray, NYU

Well put Hoops regarding Cohen's voice. It takes some time to get used to but once you get used to it it can be a very interesting journey. He has quite a few albums so it probably would be a good idea to tell new fans where to start.

I started with his greatest hits and then went back to his oldest albums which seemed to work. What do you think?

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 15:10:01 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Davis, you've got to be kidding! Godwhacker would be a mood killer.
I think "Chain Lightening" or "Home at Last" would be sublime, however.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 14:58:01 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Davis:
"Slow down, I'll tell you when / I may never walk again."

PeterQ:
Pretty sure Dean Parks has performed with both Cohen and RLJ as well.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 14:20:12 ET
Posted by: Davis, Boston

Actually depressed or in a good mood the music is always enhances your emotions good or bad.

While we are on the topic of sex, anyone ever made love while listening to 'God Whacker", very tough to keep up with Carlock. It took me 3 days to recover. lol.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 14:12:27 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Since the board has had discussions of both RLJ and Cohen lately, how about probably the only musician who's worked with them both, the great Robben Ford? Now there's a guy I'd like to see jam with Dan.e.

Re: melancholy subjects in an uplifting spirit. My fave is Bayou Lightning by Lonnie Brooks. Searing-ass guitar that feels like it's ripping your skull open, hilarious lyrics all about the eternal man-woman thing, deep groov-a-licious keyboards, bass and drums.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:52:18 ET
Posted by: h,

Gretchen:
I said no "sexual side-effect DYSFUNCTIONS" :-)

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:51:36 ET
Posted by: Rajah of Erase,

Whenever I feel low, it's either SD or Frank. One of Frank's enduring devices is croonin that sad song of loss or disappointment. And I don't know why, but his sadness helps lift me up somehow. It's like somebody else is bummed, too, I'm not alone. Donald's voice does much of the same thing. Look, we're all a little depressed right now cause of the Void of Dan which looms like the impending winter. And all the unpleasantness on the cyberwaves of late has definitely not helped matters. I think it's time to stretch out a bit and find something new, musically speakin. I'm now consumed with this piano guy Dave McKenna's album that PQ extolled on these pages, the thing is as marvelous as advertised, just exquisite, grazie Pietro. I'm gonna go get Rikey Lee later and see what pearls I can enjoy from it. But man, it's hard to come down from the high of the last few months.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:51:00 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Leonard Cohen is just amazing. What's more, he gets better and better with every album. If you don't appreciate Walter's singing you won't appreciate Cohen's "velvet croak" as I call it.

About two years ago, he came out with his first album in nine years, "Ten New Songs," and I still listen to it a couple times every week since I am still discovering so much depth to every track. I think, aside from Steely Dan, it's the best album of the past two or three years. Cohen's voice has a very narrow range which actually contributes to his masterful phrasing and understatement that permeates all of his performances. When Leonard sings the word "naked,' you immediately visualize the marks left on the skin from the panty waist-band. He can deliver other words that could otherwise be shocking and infuse them with authority and understatement. Like in "The Future" (subsequently used in the movie "Natural Born Killers"), he has the line "Give me crack and anal sex/take the only tree that's left and shove it up the hole in your culture" would be shocking by most anybody else but he delivers it such that it is tasteful and forceful by virtue of his firm and minimalist delivery. He is a poet, of course, and he is sublime, with every song like a perfectly tailored dark suit.

Any how, fans of the less-than-conventional vocals of Walter and Donald, not to mention all the detail Steely Dan songs have, would love Leonard Cohen, especially his more recent stuff. (Dean Parks performs on a few tracks on some of Cohen's albums.)

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:36:22 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Felonius! Much as I hate to get into it, unfortunately the "corporate greed" type of stuff found on EMG just doesn't hold up. If you want to talk about it, call my office. For you I'll discount my fee down to $5000 a day.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:28:33 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

postscript: Hoops mentioned that there are no sexual side effects from SD as there are from anti depressants. Actually, listening to SD actually heightens the mood........(I'm going back to work now)
g

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:25:16 ET
Posted by: felonius, on the left

Peter Q wrote:

"Michael Milken, the all time poster boy for these people, is the greatest philanthropist in the history of mankind, even more so than Andrew Carnegie. 99.999999 percent of all business people are 100 percent honest; 99.9999999999 percent of Wall Street people contribute huge amounts of money to every charity under the sun; 99.9999999999 percent of millionaires started with absolutely nothing and worked six days a week, twelve hours a day for their money."

Wow - I hereby nominate Peter Q for the 1st Annual George Will Lapdog
to the Rich Award.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:23:50 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Davis, I share your sentiments. Not feeling like a loser, exactly, but being in somewhat of a low key, rather melancholy state. The music of SD allows you to wallow in it, and actually enjoy it surrounded by that ethereal aura. They, too were probably feeling similar during the periods of writing and recording, and inevitably put forth that mood in a great portion of their music. It's not everyone who can enjoy, and even worship the uniqueness that is Dan, that's why we're a unique group. Not everyone "gets it." So, you're not alone there. I think some of our collective sadness/sensitivity is exaggerated by the fact that there are no upcoming shows or even a smidgen of Dan related news. Once we get a fix, it's hard to shake the craving for more, and when you're blue there's no better music on this planet to make you feel better. I have to agree that "Bad Sneakers" captures this feeling best. It's always been my personal and sentimental favorite.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 13:02:54 ET
Posted by: Rcray, NYU

Leonard Cohen


best song = "Don't go home with your hard on"

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 12:54:41 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Davis:

Leonard Cohen, another one of my favs, deadpans that his music could be called, "music to slit your wrists by." But while Steely Dan can have that dark tint to it, they got that attitude that reminds me, "don't let the bastards get you down." For me, "bad Sneakers" best represents this spirit, so that is why it is my favorite SD song (if I had to pick one), even though I can think of about six or seven songs that are more ground-breaking or sublimely perfect (like "Deacon Blues").

But Steely Dan Music, like all New Age music and teachings, is not a substitute for professional treatment for clinical depression. However, those treating depression with Steely Dan music do not experience the sexual side-effect dysfuctions that many traditional anti-depression medications and treatments cause.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 12:40:07 ET
Posted by: Davis, Boston

I have been in a depressed state of mind recently for various personal reasons. I mean is there any better mood to be in when listening to SD? Something about wallowing and enjoying feeling like a loser when hearing some of thse songs, new and old. It's actually bad, makes you want to stay depressed, yet content with satisfaction from the music. Can anyone relate?

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 12:37:15 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Rickie Lee Jones is playing Town Hall in NYC tonight.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 12:05:39 ET
Posted by: hoops,

I also have some kindred feelings about "Flying Cowboys." Somehow, for me, it's both Rickie AND Walter's album. I've found "Flying Cowboys" to be like a prelude/lead-in to 11TOW, although I'm not totally sure why I felt that way.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 11:53:35 ET
Posted by: bill, pittsburgh - re Rickie Lee Jones

More interestingly, Walter gets a co-author credit on the leadoff track, The Horses. I don't hear much of his influence on that song but there are certainly Steely touches elsewhere on the CD. I recall seeing her promote that CD on some talk show and doing a song with a backup band (well before the SD reunion), then joking with the host about how nervous she was working with Walter and mentioning that he was listening to the interview backstage! They never showed the bassists' face in the perfomance so he may have actually backed her up on TV, rather anonymously. I think there were two other guitarists that were clearly not him. Anyone else remember this appearance?

She also did a nice version of Show Biz Kids a couple albums ago, and I think Donald played synth on Pirates, her fine second release and to me the most Steely-like. Looking forward to hearing her new one.

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 11:43:20 ET
Posted by: Lonnie the Kingpin, 7th Avenue

On the Rickie Lee thread of discussion, I find it interesting that her "Flying Cowboys" album produced by the great Walter Becker has some extra Steely influences. To wit: the tune "Ghost Train" includes SD Alum Jimmy Keltner on drum machine effects and it is engineered by Roger "the immortal" Nichols. Moreover, the second line of the tune references the protagonist taking the bus -- what time does the bus come? 6:05 -- as in Glamour Profession. Much like the poor bastard in that tune that lives and works in L.A., the protagonist in "Ghost Train" took the bus at 6:05 cuz he/she could hardly walk and was barely alive. Hmmmm . . . kind of like Glam Prof. as well. Many interesting parallels with Rickie Lee's work.

Lonnie the Kingpin

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 11:33:59 ET
Posted by: Beautiful Housewife, deep distress

Items noted from Donald's "To Do" Planner of the last few weeks:

Week of October 5 - 11: Finish up yet another tour. Dum de dum.

Week of October 12 - 18: If still alive, have dinner at Isohama Restaurant for hopefully last time. Can't figure out what Becker sees in the place. Spend rest of week in Maui. Avoid direct sun and allow ringing in ears to dissipate.

Week of October 19 - 25: If still alive, fly back to NYC. Cash checks. Make sure everyone in the band got theirs. Check for lawsuits. Check the mail. Do laundry. Yell at the maid for not dusting the apartment, not replenishing the cat food, and consider firing her for not cleaning the toilets (again). Pick up groceries at Dean and DeLuca for Woodstock trip next week.

Week of October 26 - November 1: If still alive, arrive in Woodstock. Home at last. Make sure the caretaker is up to snuff and is raking the leaves. Water mums. Buy gasoline at station to pour on leaves for leaf pile incineration. Hate smell of burning leaves. Eyes burn, go to town for a cup of coffee and a sandwich. Maybe vanilla ice cream, too. See what's up.

Week of November 2 - 8: If still alive, think about getting back to work. Stop trying to avoid CBS. Time to give her a call. Work my way through the Joan Collins look-alike club. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,87073,00.html#3

Date: Fri, November 07, 2003, 11:21:08 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

For example, B&F use reflexive techniques in songs like Don't Take Me Alive, Things I Miss The Most, Black Friday, Everything You Did, etc. - you know it's not they, themselves, who are the characters. In songs like Book of Liars, Caves, Deacon, Any World, etc, you're not so sure. There is no obvious indicator that it is NOT how the songwriters, themselves, genuinely feel. This is hard to do in popular song. It's drawing attention, in the earlier cases, to the presence of the creative artist behind the work.

This is exactly like a scene in Fight Club where Fincher breaks the sacred Hollywood taboo of not drawing attention to the fact that we're watching a movie - he has Brad Pitt and Edward Norton look squarely into the camera and address us, the viewers, directly. It goes back even further, to Velasquez or Jan Van Eyck painting themselves into their paintings.

I would suggest the SD songs that DON'T do this are somehow more important.

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 19:14:43 ET
Posted by: Doctor Mu,

angel: I think that it does sound like "Let's get to the love scene, my friend" I like the slant in "shooting" as in a film...fits in with the second person narrative (as mentioned from the book) which Michael J. Fox used in the voiceovers - I beleive Jay McInerney co-wrote the screenplay...can't remember who directed it, but I think Sidney Pollack produced it...

Something about Donald Fagen singing over a sunrise that's ironic - (1) conclusion of Bright Lights Big City and (2) intro to the movie FM (don't bother watching that one after the intro)...For some odd reason, the official soundtrack for BLBC was not a soundtrack: just Century's End and the dance songs corraled into a package. Does anybody know if a REAL soundtrack ever existed??

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 19:08:20 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Addendum to last - I could give an analogy from one of the films of the great director David Fincher but don't want to be accused of shooting off on tangents. But B&F often use the same device. They never use it in songs like Any World That I'm Welcome To, Caves, or Deacon.

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 19:04:26 ET
Posted by: Larry, Jersey

Fall of 92 was released live by Steely Dan on an import single of Cousin Dupree

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 18:57:48 ET
Posted by: Peter Q, Brooklyn

Mu - IMHO the Steely Dan hero is exactly the opposite, that is, internally motivated, viscerally motivated - that is, not a character who is obviously a complete fictional invention (like say the thief in Green Earrings or the stock loser in Black Friday) but a character who is perhaps closer to being strictly autobiographical in nature (relax - I'm not being a mind reader, I'm saying perhaps) and who has interior feelings which I believe most Danheads relate to, ie, Any World That I'm Welcome To, Caves of A., Deacon Blues.

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 17:34:29 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Although "Fall of '92" (or it's narrator) reflects my views pretty well, I also found the song's lyrics to maybe a tad too overt and attempting too much, just not politically either, and still kinda rough. However, I can't see SD being told by a record company at that point on time that they were too political, especially since they were with Azoff's Giant at the time. I could see that in the early ABC Records days though. This guy who used to post here thought it was the best thing WB ever did; but as much as I love 11TOW, I think "Fall of '92" needed more polish.

All my two cents. I'm glad we can discuss how politics as they might be portrayed in SD songs without it evolving into a political debate. Top notch discussion!

jim

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 17:21:00 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Also, don't forget that Fall of '92 was performed at every 1993 show, sometimes eliciting boos for the Bush-bashing line as I recall, so Don & Walt didn't want to bury it but perhaps the record company types felt it a bit risky to include on 11TOW, and anyway the promo version wasn't really 'finished" to the extent of the rest of 11TOW, it's more like the demo outtakes that are circulating. It was also their second released joint composition (after Florida Room) since Gaucho.

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 17:16:52 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Hoops -
I agree, and in both cases the songs do not represent the B&F narrator's point of view, but one of a character they created, especially Fall of '92. In fact, in Fall of '92 it is a formerly rich yuppie ironically taking aim at Bush I for wrecking the economy that he had exploited (while dumping his beloved dog at the shelter and driving away in his Beemer) - methinks this is not a guy we're supposed to either like or agree with. Perhaps this character reappears in TIMTM?

As to the subject of Jack of Speed, I think there was some irony intended in the concept of a suburban hubby jacked up on drugs and ranting right wing paranoia. In fact, did our boys know something about a certain talk show host years before the rest of us?

We've seen the last of "Good" King Richard (no political significance) ...

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 16:22:02 ET
Posted by: hoops, chicago

Bill in Pittsburgh:
A friend and I were discussing how Steely Dan music has a political vibe BUT, you know, you can never can quite pin it down. When it comes to lyrics, that "Jack of Speed" line, and of course, "The Fall of '92" (only released as part of a rare promo for an 11TOW single) are the only ones that OVERTLY indicate commentary on relatively current politics. I mean, we had the "Godwhaker" debate but fact is it's not entirely clear where you can definitively pin it down with 100.0000% certainty. (Let's not recycle that debate.) "Fire In The Hole" has been argued as being about draft-dodging, but again, it is so slippery and double-edged you can't say that for sure either. AND THEY INTEND IT THAT WAY, you know?

Everything is wink-wink, nudge-nudge, which makes it delightfully slippery and far more thought provoking than simply making a literal political statement.

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 15:47:19 ET
Posted by: Bill, Pittsburgh

Re: Century's end:

I read the novel the film is based on but didn't see the movie. I do remember that it opens with the protagonist waking up after an all-night coke binge, and it may well be trucks that wake him up. The novel was also noteworthy in its day for maintaining a rather mannered "second person" narration technique in which the protagonist addresses himself, not the reader (Something like "You wake up. Your head is killing you. You wonder what the hell you did last night...") Wonder if Donald uses a bit of that in the lyric?

P.S. that right-wing hooey has stunk up the place, and by the place, I mean the U.S., not the Bluebook. And that's a Steely quote (with which I agree), not a gratuitous shot at all Republicans or Christians. Just the ones who peddle the hooey. Yes, hooey-peddlers reside on both sides of the political spectrum but the ones on the right are louder and cruder in my opinion. Still, I agree that this ain't the place to debate politics (from the Greek "poly", meaning many and "tics" meaning blood-sucking insects - Dave Barry, I think)

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 15:07:10 ET
Posted by: angel,

Mu: I think you are right on with Century's End. A few things I hear different, though I hear it your way too.
trucks (sometimes I hear as "tracks")
trouble (sometimes I hear as "travel")
kid's (sometimes I hear as "cat's")

This one is definite:
Time to shoot the love scene (Let's get to the love scene)

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 14:54:16 ET
Posted by: hoops,

Hi! Been stepping back the past two or three days to see what would happen. I have to agree that in the past couple of months, people have been a bit more hard-edged here and elsewhere.

In the case of the one emotionally disturbed poster, "Trout," I've been having to remove more than a few posts every day for the past three months or so; it's just plain abuse. Again, I'm asking that you completely ignore this person, never responding to or even alluding in any way to her. If you need to do something, mentally send her some good karma that she will get professional help. It does no good to rationalize or interact with such people when they seem to have moments of clarity or rationality because they are not capable; furthermore, it can open up private details of your life which later can be used in ways that abusive. If no one chats, emails, or rsponsed to her, she eventually goes away. So those talking to her will be banned as well.

But aside from this, some other things need addressing. It's really a great thrill to facilitate a board like this, but everyone needs to honestly consider their interactions here and how they handle themselves here and other Steely Dan forums. Some of you need to make some changes because your behavior is having a negative impact on the sense of community here and at other venues you in which you participate. I have these "traditions" that you need to consider. 1) Debating and reasoning things out with an open mind is essential BUT criticism of personalities kills the community. Sure, I felt irritated by the recent drummer debate but what was ten times worse for this place was the two or three of you started suggesting who should and shouldn't post here. That was much more of an affront to me than the person they were critiquing. 2) This forum isn't for the extended debate of politics and religions (PC vs Mac included ). To be sure, the snarky spirit of Steely Dan suggests criticism of these, but to morph into complete debate on political and religious topics, is unresolvable. What's more, other venues are much more suitable. Steely Dan takes few OVERT political stands, so it's hard to pin down. Granted it can be successful; Ricky Lee Jones' furnitureforthepeople.com does a great job of this. But until Walter and Donald ever do something like that, such extend debates are not effective and are counter-productive. As a corollary, I AM saying that discussion of tangentially Dan-related topics is a great thing. No apologies needed to have the Little Feat or Rolling Stones or Who discusions—it's all music (even though I personally may not like all three of those artists.) Just don't over do it. How much is too much? When people feel SD has become secondary to the tangential topic, then it's too much. 3) Using anonymous names here or in chat often negatively impacts the forum. To be sure, sometimes posting under an anon has the positive effect of allowing a view or opinion to expressed and evaluated on its own merit without being placed in the context of who is posting. However, more often than not, people like Shaun hide behind it to bash people. This just causes a lot of mistrust. This is even more true in chat. Last Friday, I was frustrated because I was giving some important information in chat and people wouldn't listen because they were too busy debating if it was really me! That's why I called the "chat meeting" Sunday. 4) Finally, I can't repeat this enough. If someone is pissing you off or being an asshole to you, IGNORE THEM. (Or better yet, some clever passive-agressive humor in the spirit of Steely Dan, which is NEVER el-lame-o name calling, or overt insults, etc.) Ignoring is a great way to fuck with bastards. I have no concrete information or even grounded hints, but my intuition tells me it's going to be a bit longer before we have a new SD album or tour than it was between 2000 and 2003. I love doing what I do as a Steely Dan fan; however, I can't give my time as a social worker/moderator for the socially challenged, the tactless and the ugly. L-U-V-! hoops

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 14:35:15 ET
Posted by: Ragnar Daneskjold, New York, where else.

er...um....ok?!

I didn't mean specifically you Gretchen. You were replying to some other waste of a brain.

Moreover, I agree with you this is not the forum and more power to people that have their own beliefs, principles and values. But, complaining about the current administration, GOP, and ones political leanings is trite and fortunately the work of people with small minds especially when this is not the place to view such a claim.

Wealth is the product of man's intellect fully as much as any other human value such as art, science etc....

Arguing about it is fruitless and usually done by the people that have none or very little as it were.

Regards,

rd

Date: Thurs, November 06, 2003, 13:07:15 ET
Posted by: Gretchen,

Joey, here's a mutual nuzzle! xoxo